plasticman Posted January 9, 2008 Share #41 Posted January 9, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) Jamie - I'm definitely not disagreeing with you about how attractive this would be, not to mention responsible in terms of the ecological use of valuable raw materials. I simply think it's an unlikely scenario, given the particular parameters of the M8. Like I said, there's nothing to stop Leica taking the M8 idea much further in the M9, and not only improving the sensor (and reliability), but also changing the way people buy digital cameras altogether. And by this I mean a return to an attitude that I've alluded to elsewhere on the forum - which is that one buys a camera for life, in the way that our parents did. (Obviously in my dream scenario - which is totally unrealistic - Leica manage to make the FF-sensor M9 as a 'DMR' with an interchangeable back for film. But all in the same size package as the M8... yes i can hear you laughing) Incidentally, I think a lot of people who claim they're keeping the M8 even after the M9 is released will actually find it very hard to resist the inevitable consumer-temptation... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 9, 2008 Posted January 9, 2008 Hi plasticman, Take a look here kodak sensor upgrade when available? . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
delander † Posted January 9, 2008 Share #42 Posted January 9, 2008 A Leica M with a choice of digital backs? Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex7075 Posted January 9, 2008 Author Share #43 Posted January 9, 2008 It's an interesting discussion. Today I took a picture without knowing that the M8 was set at 2500 ISO. In Lightroom, I changed to HLS mode, desaturated all colors, tweaked the white balance and a little noise reduction. The result is stunning to my eyes for a 2500 ISO file (see 100% crop attached). That's why I think that as it is, this camera can work very well for many years. But I'm pretty sure that new sensors will make some of us want them. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/42030-kodak-sensor-upgrade-when-available/?do=findComment&comment=447224'>More sharing options...
okram Posted January 9, 2008 Share #44 Posted January 9, 2008 Nice example, and point too. Here is an example at iso 640... (my skipper at my boat) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/42030-kodak-sensor-upgrade-when-available/?do=findComment&comment=447496'>More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted January 10, 2008 Share #45 Posted January 10, 2008 It's an interesting discussion. Today I took a picture without knowing that the M8 was set at 2500 ISO. In Lightroom, I changed to HLS mode, desaturated all colors, tweaked the white balance and a little noise reduction. The result is stunning to my eyes for a 2500 ISO file (see 100% crop attached). That's why I think that as it is, this camera can work very well for many years. But I'm pretty sure that new sensors will make some of us want them. It can be right because of B+W, but i find 2500 quite useless with colours.(IMHO) yet 1250iso it's not an outperformer with M8. I use them anyway, but a little improve would be really better.Many times we discussed about new d300/d3/e3/5d's high iso performances, and Leica ,i guess, will have a lot to work about this soon! best Maurizio P.S. could you post the same crop with colours?it would be once again interesting ciao Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted January 10, 2008 Share #46 Posted January 10, 2008 I agree with Maurizio ... and after all, is someway pleasant to see that things haven't became so different from "good ol' film times"... when you could make a use of a BW at 800 or 1600 or even more, but on color negs... better to stay away... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex7075 Posted January 10, 2008 Author Share #47 Posted January 10, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) P.S. could you post the same crop with colours?it would be once again interesting ciao Here it is. I am happy with colors too. But it's true, in some light conditions, 2500 ISO can get very noisy. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/42030-kodak-sensor-upgrade-when-available/?do=findComment&comment=447890'>More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted January 10, 2008 Share #48 Posted January 10, 2008 Alex, i couldn't not agree with you looking at this picture only, but IMHO this is a particular "lucky" scene: Most of this frame is full black or full white (and this helps noise not to shows up), and last but not least all the scene in this crop is well light. Then again i use to disable all of noise reduction when developing DNG, and when i need noise reduction, i usually adopt noise ninja or something like that in CS3. Here I attach some 100% crops of the same scene in this order: 640 (no noise reduction) 1250 (no noise reduction) 2500 (no noise reduction) then 640 (with noise ninja) 1250 (with noise ninja) 2500 (with noise ninja) It's just my humble opinion, but i can't be satisfied with 2500iso and most of the times with 1250iso too. Take your evaluation Best Regards Maurizio Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/42030-kodak-sensor-upgrade-when-available/?do=findComment&comment=447922'>More sharing options...
Guest stnami Posted January 10, 2008 Share #49 Posted January 10, 2008 If the Leica engineers were given free reign to produce a digital camera not subject to an old design and the need to use old lenses..upgrades could have been a norm. But some the buyers wanted something that was a rangefinder in it's old traditional sense............ you got what you asked for which includes no sensor upgrades Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eoin Posted January 10, 2008 Share #50 Posted January 10, 2008 Maurizio, FWIW I have found the amount of noise at 1250 or 2500 is directly related to the amount of underexposure. If the exposure is correct or slightly overexposed rather than underexposed the results are quite acceptable IMO. Also I've found C1 Pro or v4 about the best converter for the higher ISO shot images. Working with the Colour and Luminosity sliders in the sharpening settings also help adjust "grain" when doing monochrome versions. As to the general discussion regarding upgradeability, I for one would not be inclined to upgrade an existing camera due to wear and tear and resulting life expectancy of the parts not upgraded. I'd rather buy new and relegate to old to a backup role. That being said, I have no desire or need for improvement in the current image quality. I've always shot 1.3x factor sensors for digital and that's the way my brain sees now. No doubt when a new model is released and everyone starts reporting how good it is, sure I'll be tempted, but I've just got to keep reminding myself my photography has yet to take me to the limits of capability of the current M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted January 10, 2008 Share #51 Posted January 10, 2008 IMHO this is a particular "lucky" scene:Most of this frame is full black or full white (and this helps noise not to shows up), and last but not least all the scene in this crop is well light. While I can only judge from the crop Alex provided, the scene doesn’t apear to be well lit at all, and clearly there’s much more in the image than just black and white. The exposure is spot on, though, and that’s the key to low-noise images. All of your own sample images are underexposed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted January 10, 2008 Share #52 Posted January 10, 2008 While I can only judge from the crop Alex provided, the scene doesn’t apear to be well lit at all, and clearly there’s much more in the image than just black and white. The exposure is spot on, though, and that’s the key to low-noise images. All of your own sample images are underexposed. Exactly... each of Maurizio's "ISO" samples there are at least another stop sensitive; ISO 2500 in those demonstration files is more like ISO 5000 or higher It bears repeating: above ISO 640 the M8 loses "exposure range" and your exposure needs to be exact or even "pushed to the right" otherwise noise will make a mess of it. Now it's true that different RAW converters do different things, too, and I'm finding the new C1 v4 has some very nice noise controls built in. Here are two--both in colour--at ISO 1250 with the Noctilux @ 1/20s and either f1.0 or 1.2--so you know it was dark, from C1 v4; no other post whatsoever. What's interesting to me here is how well the colour holds up even though I've pushed these almost a stop in C1 (IOW, I probably should have been using ISO 2500, but I was more concerned about focusing at the time ). Yes, there's noise, but not appreciably more than the 5d shots I took at the same time (though in truth the 5d seemed a little more light sensitive at 1250 than the M8, so I could shoot with a 1.4 and a higher shutter): Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/42030-kodak-sensor-upgrade-when-available/?do=findComment&comment=448028'>More sharing options...
sdai Posted January 10, 2008 Share #53 Posted January 10, 2008 Color noise can always be easily concealed when shooting/converting to black and white ... whether your exposure is spot on or not, and luminance noise will simply appear as "grain" and many possibly will be quite fond of it. This makes me thinking (again) ... why can't Leica just do a M or R just for black and white shooting? Without the color demosaic Bayer pattern filter we're getting higher resolution at the same pixel count (architecture), no color moire and demosaic artifacts ... dedicated black and white sensors are costing less and Leica in fact could charge a premium for it. What about the B/W M digital we've once heard about? did it get killed or just never existed in their mind? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted January 10, 2008 Share #54 Posted January 10, 2008 {snipped}What about the B/W M digital we've once heard about? did it get killed or just never existed in their mind? Dunno--I just want the sensor upgrade for higher ISO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted January 10, 2008 Share #55 Posted January 10, 2008 All of your own sample images are underexposed. These are only a crop of the scene where M8 gave his worst part. The scene is not complete.These are not underexposed, they're just the shadowed part in the frame, and it's not so bearable. Jamie's samples are obviously well metered and exposed, but i you crop on the elbow of the man, you'll get the same noise that i'm pointin' at. While in the second Jamie's picture it seems to me everything but an acceptable 1250iso shot.(Don't get me wrong Jamie, i'm just discussing about noise that it's not obviously up to you;) ). I can see not detail in the lady's hair, and the eye it's quite confused by noise. Last but not least, my samples are free from noise reduction! Best Regards Maurizio Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 10, 2008 Share #56 Posted January 10, 2008 I hear you, Maurizio, but I fear Jamie is right, much as I respect your opinions. The whole image must be exposed perfectly to avoid high-ISO noise. Have a look at this Thread as well, it is quite to the point. M8 low light performance....... - Rangefinderforum.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
furcafe Posted January 10, 2008 Share #57 Posted January 10, 2008 Yes, but I think it depends on what you mean by "the whole image." In many (& for me, typical) low-light scenes, there's too much contrast to get "proper" shadow exposure without completely blowing the highlights & in those situations, the 5D, for example. seems to perform much better (I don't own a 5D, but have seen many raw files shot by a friend in the exact same lighting situations that I've shot in w/the M8). I hear you, Maurizio, but I fear Jamie is right, much as I respect your opinions. The whole image must be exposed perfectly to avoid high-ISO noise. Have a look at this Thread as well, it is quite to the point.M8 low light performance....... - Rangefinderforum.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted January 10, 2008 Share #58 Posted January 10, 2008 I hear you, Maurizio, but I fear Jamie is right, much as I respect your opinions. The whole image must be exposed perfectly to avoid high-ISO noise. Have a look at this Thread as well, it is quite to the point.M8 low light performance....... - Rangefinderforum.com Hi Jaap, thanks for the link, but i need yout to explain to me the trick again.I don't think I've got it. What do you mean for iso5000 pull? If metering gives me a shot to do with 640iso / f1.4 / 1/35th, what should i do? thanks Maurizio Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted January 10, 2008 Share #59 Posted January 10, 2008 Hi Jaap, thanks for the link, but i need yout to explain to me the trick again.I don't think I've got it. What do you mean for iso5000 pull? If metering gives me a shot to do with 640iso / f1.4 / 1/35th, what should i do? thanks Maurizio Maurizio-- First, I don't expect a high ISO shot to have the same shadow detail as a low ISO shot for the very reason that the sensor is not limitless in terms of what it can deliver (any more than film was). So I'm quite happy with where the black point falls in these shots without much NR (or NR only applied at the RAW level). Secondly, I wouldn't concern myself overly about the detail you can see from these web JPEGs Believe me, the 5d shots weren't any better underexposed by a stop at ISO 1250, and you're not looking at 100% crops. Last, in answer to your question of what to do when the meter tells you ISO 640 @ 1/30 and f1.4 is "it depends". What does it depend on? Whether you want highlight or shadow detail. At ISO 640, you still have about 2 stops of shadow detail without too much noise. At ISO 1250, you have one exactly (which is what my shots show, but I don't care, because the detail in her hair in near-total darkness doesn't matter compared with her expression). At ISO 2500 you have no leeway whatsoever; you must expose for the shadows to get detail without noise. But if all you care about is the highlights, then meter for those (don't blow them). The trick of course is when you need to preserve highlights at high ISOs you will necessarily bury the shadows below the blackpoint: you have no DR left to raise shadow levels in post without noise. Which is why, of course, it's sometimes better to shoot at lower ISOs and push in post. (I just wanted to add that, again, in identical situations, the 5d is about a half step more sensitive at a given ISO rating, so that it indeed ultimately provides somewhat better shadow detail with less noise. But you don't see it in prints). Now, and here is where we are back on topic, I would like a next-generation sensor, with abilities (like the D3) up to about ISO 25,000 That doesn't mean I'd shoot there, but it does mean that at ISO 2500 I'd have two or three stops of shadow room. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mauribix Posted January 10, 2008 Share #60 Posted January 10, 2008 Maurizio-- Secondly, I wouldn't concern myself overly about the detail you can see from these web JPEGs Believe me, the 5d shots weren't any better underexposed by a stop at ISO 1250, and you're not looking at 100% crops. This is what i said, we can't compare my shots to yours, different things ... but I don't care, because the detail in her hair in near-total darkness doesn't matter compared with her expression. this is what i didn't want, i wasn't critic on the picture,you don't need to defend the artistic ability (of which you're certainly capable),but with another sensor, with the same shot (considering that we are using probably the best lenses in the market) you would have had the details in her hair's too. I didn't mean a personal attack, really sorry if you understood this! At ISO 2500 you have no leeway whatsoeve Here I don't think we have a different views: 2500 on M8 it's not so usable compared to new nikon or canon's Now, and here is where we are back on topic, I would like a next-generation sensor, with abilities (like the D3) up to about ISO 25,000 That doesn't mean I'd shoot there, but it does mean that at ISO 2500 I'd have two or three stops of shadow room. I perfectly second this, and that's why i posted my 100% crop sample, it's obvious that something must be improved, and since at Leica's there's someone reading at this forum... Best Maurizio Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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