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kodak sensor upgrade when available?


alex7075

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{snipped}this is what i didn't want, i wasn't critic on the picture,you don't need to defend the artistic ability (of which you're certainly capable),but with another sensor, with the same shot (considering that we are using probably the best lenses in the market) you would have had the details in her hair's too.

I didn't mean a personal attack, really sorry if you understood this!

{Snipped}

 

Maurizio--no worries--I knew you weren't being personal.

 

And I wasn't actually defending the artistic merits of either shot, such as they are (though I do like her expression), but rather saying that if I wanted to hold her eyes then I have to make a choice about the shadow detail, which will be buried at 1250 because you don't have extra stops. And in this particular picture, that choise was ok with me, and not very much different than what I'd get with the 5d, since I couldn't open it up to f1.0 or thereabouts (my 50 1.2L was in for service) And a bit of the shadow detail loss was down to user error too--I could have shot at ISO 2500 and probably got a better shot, but the black point would have been even more critical).

 

So we're agreeing, anyway, because it's true with a D3-like sensor capability I could probably push the shadows much higher in post even at ISO 1250.

 

Which is why I'd like--someday--a sensor and electronics upgrade and why it has nothing to do with the M9 which might have all kinds of other stuff :)

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Well, going back to where this thread started, I doubt that we'll see a sensor upgrade, for the reasons that Mark Norton mentioned, and also because the market would be very small. Lets face it - 90%+ of all M8s are used to produce expensive JPEGs. A sensor upgrade is just meaningless in that situation.

 

But I also doubt that a sensor upgrade would be very useful. In my view, most of the M8's problems have more to do with insufficient processing power than with the sensor - e.g., AWB, JPEGs, 8-bit image files, etc. A sensor upgrade would probably just make those problems worse, especially if it was a resolution increase. You'd really have to strip out every piece of electronics in the camera, and start again, and I don't think that's going to happen.

 

Sandy

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Which is why I'd like--someday--a sensor and electronics upgrade and why it has nothing to do with the M9 which might have all kinds of other stuff :)

 

I second this in every single word! Noisless improvement could be done just by manipulating and developing the firmware!

 

and if a future M9 should come, i wouldn't throw away my M8 by sure!

I'd probably be in row waiting to get the first M9, but as any Leica has been in my life, even the M8 has become part of it!

So i dream of improvements very often for my M8.You're right!

 

Best Regards

 

Maurizio

 

P.S. THanks once again for your profiles! They saved my pictures so many times!:D

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There're rumors on dpreview that Pentax will introduce a 14 megapixel K20D at 1200 US dollars ... keep in mind, anything mass productible ... anything ... spells JUNK.

 

I believe it's only a matter of time when we'll see 16-20MP DSLRs below 1000 US dollars a piece, then who on earth will bother with any upgrade, repair or service? you just throw it away and get another one. :)

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Well, going back to where this thread started, I doubt that we'll see a sensor upgrade, for the reasons that Mark Norton mentioned, and also because the market would be very small. Lets face it - 90%+ of all M8s are used to produce expensive JPEGs. A sensor upgrade is just meaningless in that situation.

 

But I also doubt that a sensor upgrade would be very useful. In my view, most of the M8's problems have more to do with insufficient processing power than with the sensor - e.g., AWB, JPEGs, 8-bit image files, etc. A sensor upgrade would probably just make those problems worse, especially if it was a resolution increase. You'd really have to strip out every piece of electronics in the camera, and start again, and I don't think that's going to happen.

 

Sandy

 

Sandy, here's where we agree to disagree.

 

First, I think the M8 really signals a key point in time when serious and pro photographers have really considered using a manually focused rangefinder camera for their work in the digital world (ok, there was the Epson, but it was never more than a niche camera).

 

Secondly, I'm with Steve in questioning how many M8 users really use JPEGs or really care about AWB. Ok there are some. But they wouldn't want the sensor / electronics upgrade anyway.

 

But the pros I know want what a reasonable upgrade would give them: no undue image artifacts like the green streak (which IMO should still be fixed for all M8 users), improved noise and no filters on the glass.

 

So Leica could grow their professional segment of the market just by doing something like this. It would signal a willingness to be a serious and professionally-oriented "image quality" company and not just an interesting luxury marque.

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Well, only Leica knows what their M8 market segment penetration really is. But I think the "birthday party" ad material is probably a good indication. Various people have suggested that they are amateurish, etc - I'd suggest there's a second interpretation: that's where the money is, and Leica knows it.

 

Sandy

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Leica won't offer an upgrade - just look at their reaction to FW changes that would alter any sort of hardware functions. Leica is anything but a progressive company. Why we love them and hate them at the same time.

 

My local dealer has said he's sold zero, zip Summarits. Not sure what this means. I think anybody who plops down 5K plus for a manual rangefinder digital body will have no problems ponying up a few more K for the best lenses. And/or already own a few and/or go for the much better bargain of Zeiss and C/V.

 

There's just as much good and bad work done with any camera made, usually on the former side. The amount a camera costs has no bearing on this, though with the M8, due to its preciousness, we've had to suffer through more than our fair share of pics of lobbies of high end hotels and owner's sports cars. :D

 

Regarding shadow detail at high iso: I find that I'm shooting the M8 like I used to shoot slide film. Shadows are exactly that - shadows. When I would push 400 slide to 1600 I would get these great rich colors but the shadows went black and that was part of the look. I think sometimes this need to have everything from a digital sensor is limiting artistry. Use what you have and learn how to post process it. And how to shoot it in the first place. Any sensor at iso 1250 and above isn't going to render an Ansel Adams perfect zone system photo. It's also the reason we spend thousands of dollars on lenses that have the best wide open performance of any. That allows one to shoot at lower iso.

 

That said I would love to get my hands on a D3!:)

 

La Paz Mexico. 28 cron wide open iso 640.

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I agree with Jamie in many ways.

This camera body, its range finder system, buttons and dials are all made to last.

The black chrome on it, which is made to last, and look even better as time goes by; the lens bayonet is made to take lenses precisely, out of best steel; all the little detail made so good are ment to be thrown away in two to three years?

There is that little difference between this camera and some others in that respect, I believe.

 

An upgrade would not, in my opinion, interfere with sales of M9. It would make M9 very wanted camera, because it would mean that it could be also CCD upgradeable, therefore good investment..

 

I think Solms left this possible, with some interior design of this camera, but they had not yet decided to offer this. Or?

The best argument I heard against possible CCD upgrade is that it is a very small company, and parallel to development of M9, they would be short of resources...

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Leica could offer a "Trade-in Program" to M8 owners when the M8-2 or M9 becomes available. Phase One, Hasselblad and Leaf did this all the time.

 

This would be way better than any upgrade and greatly help to move the existing M8 stock. :)

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Leica could offer a "Trade-in Program" to M8 owners when the M8-2 or M9 becomes available. Phase One, Hasselblad and Leaf did this all the time.

 

This would be way better than any upgrade and greatly help to move the existing M8 stock. :)

 

Yes, that would be nice, but again, if they opened up the idea of hw upgrades, then I'd like to keep my updated 1.3 crop M8 *and* buy a new and improved M9 :) I'd think about trading in my m8 when they brought out the M10 or whatever they will call it!

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Yes, that would be nice, but again, if they opened up the idea of hw upgrades, then I'd like to keep my updated 1.3 crop M8 *and* buy a new and improved M9 :) I'd think about trading in my m8 when they brought out the M10 or whatever they will call it!

 

I will never sell my M8, (nor trade it in) because it's a milestone in the Leica M history (Leica's first step into the DRF world), but i will gladly upgrade the sensor or even buy a M9 or MXX, so my M8 will stay with me forever, i love this camera, even with it's "early stage in development, child diseases" an upgradeable 24X36 sensor with a bit better Hi ISO performance and fixed

IR filtering (on sensor) would even make it even more memorable...(I strongly dislike the "forced to use UV/IR filters solution")

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