alex7075 Posted January 7, 2008 Share #1 Posted January 7, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have seen the performance of the Nikon D3 sensor at very high ISO and I think that's amazing. Do you think that if Kodak will produce a better sensor that can be fitted in the M8 (same size and crop factor), there will be a chance to upgrade our cameras? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 7, 2008 Posted January 7, 2008 Hi alex7075, Take a look here kodak sensor upgrade when available?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted January 7, 2008 Share #2 Posted January 7, 2008 Crystal ball off for service - I would say most unlikely- it is not just the sensor, it is the electronics as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jager Posted January 8, 2008 Share #3 Posted January 8, 2008 Yes, a better sensor will be produced at some point. No, existing M8's will not be upgradeable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
okram Posted January 8, 2008 Share #4 Posted January 8, 2008 There is no reason for camera not to be upgradeable. (As the matter of M8, this sounds reasonable and likely to me.) Only economical. Is it better to sell more M9`s or to offer an upgrade? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparkie Posted January 8, 2008 Share #5 Posted January 8, 2008 There is no reason for camera not to be upgradeable. (As the matter of M8, this sounds reasonable and likely to me.) Only economical. Is it better to sell more M9`s or to offer an upgrade? Selling more M9's would be more profitable I imagine. Otherwise other manufacturers woud be doing it already (ie offering sensor upgrades) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted January 8, 2008 Share #6 Posted January 8, 2008 Given the service backlog and turnaround times, I think it's highly unlikely Leica would offer an upgrade. There are all sorts of complications retro-fitting new stuff into an old body such as power requirements, warranty; besides, I expect Leica would much rather see a lower priced secondhand market established to allow a lower cost of entry by keeping M8s as they are. My M8 key issues list runs to these 7 items: - Frame Size - ISO Sensitivity/Image Noise/Dynamic Range - IR Sensitivity - Mechanical Noise - Body Thickness - Viewfinder Framing Accuracy - Focussing Accuracy so an updated M8 or M9 only makes sense to me if significant progress is made on each. An M8-2 mid-life makeover with just lower image noise and a la carte would be met by me with a shrug of the shoulders. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 8, 2008 Share #7 Posted January 8, 2008 Advertisement (gone after registration) I though, Mark, that there was talk about a frameline upgrade some time in the future. That might be interesting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex7075 Posted January 8, 2008 Author Share #8 Posted January 8, 2008 Right, but a camera upgrade could be in my opinion more in the "philosophy" of the brand: well built, long lasting bodies where at some point one could have the digital equivalent of film changed (with some electronics as jaapv remembers), following the progress of digital technology. IR sensitivity and ISO sensitivity, noise and DR would be better, just like putting a new film. And the camera stays the same. That would mean going on with a crop factor and the other things pointed out by Mark of course, that - personally speaking - don't bother me that much. Anyway, I am delighted by the M8. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted January 8, 2008 Share #9 Posted January 8, 2008 The impression I have when doing a sensor clean is that the body as such would allow a full frame sensor - the metal of the body does not follow the sensor edge closely and appears to be at a reguler 35mm format. Maybe Mark knows - having taken the poor thing completely apart. The main isssue is the sensor vignetting & microlenses solution they use. I sent Leica an e-mail on that as I had an idea to solve that problem but: reply=0. Maybe I should of sent it to Kodak? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 8, 2008 Share #10 Posted January 8, 2008 Right, but a camera upgrade could be in my opinion more in the "philosophy" of the brand: well built, long lasting bodies where at some point one could have the digital equivalent of film changed (with some electronics as jaapv remembers), following the progress of digital technology. IR sensitivity and ISO sensitivity, noise and DR would be better, just like putting a new film. And the camera stays the same.That would mean going on with a crop factor and the other things pointed out by Mark of course, that - personally speaking - don't bother me that much. Anyway, I am delighted by the M8. Get the Megaperls 1.15x magnifier. It still allows one to see the 24 mm framelines, more or less, but focussing is suddenly 100% easier. Built-in diopter correction too. From 50 mm upwards, of course, the 1.35x is advisable. I have it, but I have two bodies. I don't like screwing the things in and out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted January 8, 2008 Share #11 Posted January 8, 2008 {snipped} I expect Leica would much rather see a lower priced secondhand market established to allow a lower cost of entry by keeping M8s as they are. My M8 key issues list runs to these 7 items: - Frame Size - ISO Sensitivity/Image Noise/Dynamic Range - IR Sensitivity - Mechanical Noise - Body Thickness - Viewfinder Framing Accuracy - Focussing Accuracy so an updated M8 or M9 only makes sense to me if significant progress is made on each. {snipped}. But just imagine for a moment the loyalty and trust the brand could build with its community with a significant upgrade that was, say, half the price of an M9? That way, no-one would buy a used a M8 just to "cheat" and I suspect many more M9s would be sold simply by Leica taking a strong position on legacy equipment in a throw-away age. In all honesty, there will always be cameras to tempt away RF users, increasingly as time goes on. As for M8 issues, we all have our list, but if someone said to me, ok, we'll change up your M8 and give you just this: --improved frameline accuracy on the long end --improved sensor with ISO 2500 where ISO 640 is now (but the same size or better) --no more IR filters, and the option of 16bpp RAWs with SD/HC cards --NO weird artifacts when shooting (like the "dark pixel" green streak) --improved (more reliable) electronics And it cost about $2500 (plus reasonable shipping, etc...) then I not only would I do it in a heartbeat, my money would be ready and on the table for whatever Leica brought to market next. (If they could put auto-ISO shift a la Nikon in there, I'd be even happier!) They really would have an opportunity to keep their existing market and grow a brand new one--and show how different they are than the competition Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted January 8, 2008 Share #12 Posted January 8, 2008 Sensor upgrade will never happen ... because all supporting electronics will need to be upgraded as well - which is no different from giving you a brand new camera. Think it this way ... when you go from Pentium 2 to Pentium 4 ... now Core 2 Duo, Core 2 QUAD, it's easier to buy a new computer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Roberts Posted January 8, 2008 Share #13 Posted January 8, 2008 {Snipped}Think it this way ... when you go from Pentium 2 to Pentium 4 ... now Core 2 Duo, Core 2 QUAD, it's easier to buy a new computer. Well, yes, except for the fact that all the expensive stuff in a computer is in the motherboard. The case and floppy--even the hard drives--are essentially junk value the minute you turn them on. The ONLY thing that maintains value is the processor and memory. But in the M8 it's the opposite. The electronics are stupidly cheap compared to the RF assembly, for example, let alone the body itself. The electronics will also be more or less modular, so that shouldn't pose too much problem, actually. Now, if they had to update the shutter system (not just the shutter) or tear down the RF, then I'd agree. But from Mark's tear-down, this could be done; whether it should be done is up to Leica. I also think this is an environmentally friendly thing to acheive. It's ridiculous thinking about the number of Canon 1ds cameras that will eventually be landfill. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted January 8, 2008 Share #14 Posted January 8, 2008 Actually, every damn thing in the M8 is pretty cheap ... including the sensor and CPU and many of them can be mail ordered on the web ... nothing more than a few hundred bucks. It's German labor that costs us a bundle ... union and social welfare sucks, think about their retirement package and vacation days. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gravastar Posted January 8, 2008 Share #15 Posted January 8, 2008 [snip] .........The main isssue is the sensor vignetting & microlenses solution they use. I sent Leica an e-mail on that as I had an idea to solve that problem but: reply=0. Maybe I should of sent it to Kodak? I'm suprised you had no reply .... I would have expected one so that Leica could indemnify themselves against future action should they independently arrive at the same solution. The hitech company I used to work for was very strict over that, we always acknowleged by returning such inputs to the sender, unopened if possible or requested the submitter to sign the relevant legal documents before we would discuss the matter. Bob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SJP Posted January 8, 2008 Share #16 Posted January 8, 2008 Thanks for the comment - I basically sent them the idea with 0 strings attached as I have no ambitions in the sensor development area. I would have been nice to at least had a confirmation of receipt. Possibly the receiving end had no idea what to do with it & it disappeared in the square filing system? Does anyone have a name or e-mail adress straight to the R&D department? If so please send a PM & will try again. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted January 8, 2008 Share #17 Posted January 8, 2008 It's German labor that costs us a bundle ... union and social welfare sucks, think about their retirement package and vacation days. Kinda makes you wonder why the Americans abolished slavery doesn't it. Strange that whenever people start to talk about overpaid labour they never seem to include themselves as part of the issue, or volunteer to take a pay cut to help correct the problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdai Posted January 8, 2008 Share #18 Posted January 8, 2008 Strange that whenever people start to talk about overpaid labour they never seem to include themselves as part of the issue, or volunteer to take a pay cut to help correct the problem. Bottomline, if I were to take a pay cut then Leica would have taken one hit in sales ... one of their employees might have lost his/her pay cheque for a month. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 8, 2008 Share #19 Posted January 8, 2008 Actually, every damn thing in the M8 is pretty cheap ... including the sensor and CPU and many of them can be mail ordered on the web ... nothing more than a few hundred bucks. It's German labor that costs us a bundle ... union and social welfare sucks, think about their retirement package and vacation days. So buy a camera made in China - what is stopping you? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
okram Posted January 8, 2008 Share #20 Posted January 8, 2008 Am I wrong: (in case, of course, that CCD tecnology allows this, but it seems that M9 will be FF) Change the CCD assembly, together with buffer (RAM) and processor. (marknorton notices empty places in the assembly, as the full frame shutter inside. Change the frameline selector to show 28mm for 28mm. Change the batteries for more mah (that is done al the time, and the batteries seem light) And thats it. 1500Eur. M9- same CCD, weather seals, more fps, more silent, LED framelines, AF by movement of CCD (leneses are set to infinity), anti shake reduction..... 5000eur. So choose. remember that Kodak once had a SLR camera that offered such an upgrade...it failed bbut... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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