S4 speculations

[BernardC]

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6 minutes ago, helged said:

What about a more square sensor format than 2:3? In this way, a larger part of the available image circle of eg L-mount lenses can be used. Would be interesting, I think.

The new sensor will have a short dimension of less than 36mm (the S3 is 30x45), so a vertical crop would be less than 36mm tall. You could fit a square 30mm crop (42.4mm diameter) inside the "Full Frame" 43.2mm image circle. If Leica uses the X2d/GFX sensor size (33x44), the largest vertical crop of FF lenses is 28x33 (1.18:1), which is slightly more square than 4x5 (1.25:1).

That might be the USP for a lot of photographers, paired with Leica's always-excellent skin tones.

[Pieter12]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

The new sensor will have a short dimension of less than 36mm (the S3 is 30x45), so a vertical crop would be less than 36mm tall. You could fit a square 30mm crop (42.4mm diameter) inside the "Full Frame" 43.2mm image circle. If Leica uses the X2d/GFX sensor size (33x44), the largest vertical crop of FF lenses is 28x33 (1.18:1), which is slightly more square than 4x5 (1.25:1).

That might be the USP for a lot of photographers, paired with Leica's always-excellent skin tones.

Leica has stated many times that it is committed to the 2:3 format. I doubt they'll change it, it's kind of a signature part of the look.

[helged]

1 hour ago, Pieter12 said:

Leica has stated many times that it is committed to the 2:3 format. I doubt they'll change it, it's kind of a signature part of the look.

Irrespective of the S4 aspect ratio, a mask will be applied to the fullframe L/M/R-lenses. The 'default' mask will certainly have the 2:3-ratio. But optional masks could cover a more squarish sensor estate. Would be cool, reducing the need for/use of stitching, for instance.

[Pieter12]

3 hours ago, helged said:

Irrespective of the S4 aspect ratio, a mask will be applied to the fullframe L/M/R-lenses. The 'default' mask will certainly have the 2:3-ratio. But optional masks could cover a more squarish sensor estate. Would be cool, reducing the need for/use of stitching, for instance.

Will be? You know something specific, then?

[helged]

4 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

Will be? You know something specific, then?

Only that the S4 can be used with existing S- and L-mount lenses via adapters (coming from a Leica representative). 

[BernardC]

10 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

Will be? You know something specific, then?

Rather than asking this every time, you should go through the thread and find the relevant links. There have been several interviews and statements from official Leica representatives where they explain some of what they are working on. This includes the chairman of Leica's board (and part owner), as well as other spokespeople who know what they are/aren't allowed to say.

Here's a brief summary:

• The S3 and S lenses are out of production. There will be no direct (DSLR-style) successor.
• Leica is working on a new mirrorless medium format camera. This is what we call the "S4" on this forum, but the name is just a placeholder.
• The new camera will have a new mount and a new line of lenses. The camera will be fully compatible with L-Mount, S-Mount and M-Mount lenses via adapters.
• The estimated timeline is "within two years," as-of 2024, so probably 2026.
• Leica showed us a prototype of the new camera during the M11 launch presentations. This camera was bigger than an SL camera (shown next to it), with a bigger lens mount and sensor. It's unlikely that this prototype was carelessly left lying around in a staged set.
• Leica cameras use a joint Panasonic/Leica platform known as the "L2 Alliance." This includes a new processor family that is different from the one used in the S3 (seen in the SL3, SL3-S, and recent Lumix bodies). Both companies contribute to L2, and both companies benefit from L2.

I vaguely recall that someone at Leica mentioned CS lenses, but I'm not sure about that.

What we don't know yet is everything else, but specifically: what sensor, what features, what lenses, when? This is a speculative thread, as per the title, so feel free to join in the speculation. Many of us are using this as a feature request thread, but I'm sure that the design is mostly locked-down by now.

[Stef63]

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@BernardC I think you made a useful and informative recap.  I have however one small remark regarding the L2 Alliance and joint platform: although I think it is reasonable to say that the new camera will also be based on this - or an evolution of this - platform.  We do not know it for sure.  Unless I missed some of the on or off the record statements of Leica people confirming it. 

Edited August 27 by Stef63

[Pieter12]

Well if it is speculative then none of the statements made by members are certain, despite their assertion. Leica representatives can make statements that are taken as legitimate information at the time, but that does not mean there cannot be changes along the way. Leica walked away from the M5 and the R, they can certainly walk away from whatever the S4 is in some folks perception. Leica is in business to make a profit and they seem to be doing well in the FF category. The S cameras are their only foray into MF and don't seem to have been the success they probably hoped for. Right now, Hasselblad and Fujifilm dominate the category and Leica would probably be introducing a product that would go up against PhaseOne, a niche market with an existing, mature product line.

[Stuart Richardson]

I think it is important to note the difference between the existing R and S lineups and a potential S4. Both of those systems were completely isolated. An R camera could only use R lenses and R bodies. Likewise, and S could use older MF lenses, but there were no other systems that could effectively use S lenses, only their own SL. The S4, on the otherhand would be more like a universal platform. If what has been telegraphed as true is indeed true, you would be able to use a vast variety of lenses: all M and M39 lenses back to the 1920s, all R lenses, all L mount lenses, all S lenses, lenses from Sigma, Panasonic, EOS lenses with AF, Mamiya 645, Pentax 6x7, Contax 645 with AF, Hasselblad H with AF, Hasselblad V, you can use it on a Sinar P, P2 or P3 with the Sinar P mf-L. You could use PL mount lenses etc etc. Basically, put anything you want on it and it will be able to shoot it, it seems. That is not even accounting for what lenses they might make specifically for it. The GFX can do a lot of that as well, but as far as I am aware, not with the AF for Contax and Hasselblad H lenses, and certainly not with microlens support for M lenses.  If Leica enables central shutter lenses, then it will also support flash sync at all speeds. 
Basically, if they do this right it need not be as niche a camera as the first S was. The potential versatility will be unparalleled in the market. 

[frame-it]

7 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The potential versatility will be unparalleled in the market. 

true..

IF

1: they don't use an underpowered processor, as they usually do for all their cameras

2: they use a newer generation sensor, with great dynamic range, not ridiculous iso 200,000 that needs ai to clean and still looks like plastic, anyway,real         paid work magazines, fashion etc etc is usually done with lighting setups

3: they beta test it by real working photographers, not silly youtube content creators, for at least 1 year before release

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28 by frame-it

[ynp]

8 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

on

As far as I know, Leica did not allow the adapter stacking and we can use our Contax and HC adapters only on the S. I doubt that they will want to invest into adapters for the outdated MF systems from the other manufacturers. And I doubt they would open the communication protocols to the independent manufacturers from China.  Leica introduced the Contax and HC AF adapters on the launch of the S2, when the S line was very limited. 
I hope to be wrong. 

Edited August 28 by ynp

[Leica Land]

By the time Leica S4 is announce.

Hasselblad X3Dii is about to be replaced

[BernardC]

14 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

Leica walked away from the M5 and the R, they can certainly walk away from whatever the S4 is in some folks perception.

I'm not sure I see the relevance, other than generalized pessimism. The R system lasted for 45 years. The M5 wasn't a success, but Leica kept selling M4 variants and worked on the M6. You could have mentioned the LTM "Barnack" cameras, which were discontinued after a shorter run than the R (1925-65, roughly). I think you'll find that most historical companies have product lines that they no longer sell.

You are of course free to keep telling us that the S4 will never come out. All that we know is that the chairman of the board mentioned the product - during formal interviews - this Spring. This means that it was still in development at that time, and that it wasn't under threat of cancellation (a board member would know). Given the timelines, and the fact that we saw engineering bucks 4 years ago, it's likely that development was nearing completion when he made those statements.

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I think it is also helpful to note that, unlike with the R system, the exisiting S system (SLR with screw drive AF) is indeed discontinued. With the R system, they kept hinting that they were going to make an R10 until they eventually sold out all of their stock and then they announced they were no longer going to continue it. The R system was also a manual focus SLR system that was very outdated compared to the things that were out at the time -- such as autofocus full frame digital cameras from Canon and Nikon. They chose instead to discontinue thinking they could not compete with Canon and Nikon, and instead they launched the S system to capitalize on their strengths: design and build quality and lens design for pro buyers less sensitive to price. Where we are today, there is really no incentive for them to telegraph that there would be a new S unless they intend to do one. If anything, it just eats into their sales, as a buyer might stay with the SL2 instead of get an SL3 since they might rather save for an S4. We already know the S line as it was is over, so they could have easily just said: "Yes, the market is not interested, but if you get an S adapter L you can use your lenses on our lovely SL3 and the subsequent SL cameras." Of course, this does not guarantee that they will go all the way and bring one to market, but it does seem a bit strange to keep hinting that one is coming if they have no intention to do it...it would just fuel customer resentment. 

Edited August 28 by Stuart Richardson

[Stuart Richardson]

7 hours ago, ynp said:

As far as I know, Leica did not allow the adapter stacking and we can use our Contax and HC adapters only on the S. I doubt that they will want to invest into adapters for the outdated MF systems from the other manufacturers. And I doubt they would open the communication protocols to the independent manufacturers from China.  Leica introduced the Contax and HC AF adapters on the launch of the S2, when the S line was very limited. 
I hope to be wrong. 

You are correct. But they may allow it for the new S body, since that was the original intention. But I agree, probably not as many people interested now in making electronic adapters for old AF systems. But my main point was that the new S4 is likely to be a very very versatile camera platform: one that can serve many needs at once across multiple formats. In that way, it has the potential to be more useful than the SLR version, which had more limited flexibility. 

[Stuart Richardson]

8 hours ago, frame-it said:

true..

IF

1: they don't use an underpowered processor, as they usually do for all their cameras

2: they use a newer generation sensor, with great dynamic range, not ridiculous iso 200,000 that needs ai to clean and still looks like plastic, anyway,real         paid work magazines, fashion etc etc is usually done with lighting setups

3: they beta test it by real working photographers, not silly youtube content creators, for at least 1 year before release

 

 

 

 

Yes, if they make it poorly and don't test it, it will be bad. 

[ZHNL]

The new Hasselblad could change the landscape of MF market. At less than 7500 with premium build and first one with 3.6” OLED display, it is impressive. It won’t surprise me Leica S should be double Fuji’s asking at 15000 or so. But 7400 X2D2? It will be a tough sell for S. 

I am happy with GFx1002 and Kipon myself for S glass. however I applaud Hasselblads progress. Competition is great. And Leica you are too slow.

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, ZHNL said:

The new Hasselblad could change the landscape of MF market. At less than 7500 with premium build and first one with 3.6” OLED display, it is impressive. It won’t surprise me Leica S should be double Fuji’s asking at 15000 or so. But 7400 X2D2? It will be a tough sell for S. 

I am happy with GFx1002 and Kipon myself for S glass. however I applaud Hasselblads progress. Competition is great. And Leica you are too slow.

And the XCD lens line has gotten broader, faster, quieter and more compact, at prices even less than many SL lenses, let alone potential new S lenses.  The just introduced 35-100 f2.8-4 zoom, for example, seems impressive at $4599 US, and is a half pound lighter than the SL 24-90 at $6310. 

[Pieter12]

What we really need is an adapter to use S lenses on the Hasselblad...

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Einst_Stein]

32 minutes ago, Pieter12 said:

What we really need is an adapter to use S lenses on the Hasselblad...

By Leica or Hasselblad, not some kind of third party reverse engineering, I hope.