EVF M rumoured

[pgk]

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2 hours ago, Smogg said:

Highlights metering eliminates need a histogram for me

Ummmm. There's more to exposure than simply considering highlights .....

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[phojomatic]

5 hours ago, Smogg said:

If I was satisfied with the EVF and not the rangefinder, I would not buy the Leica APO 50 and APO 35. I would prefer the Voightlander Lanthar, they are noticeably cheaper, but no worse in quality, and when shooting against the sun, they even surpass their Leica counterparts. However, they have a significant disadvantage - the size, which covers a significant part of the frame in the rangefinder. Therefore, I believe that if the EVF-M comes out, many will stop buying Leica lenses.

This is a very interesting perspective. I recently saw a Thypoch and thought build quality is pretty nice, but it's pretty big and would be better adapted to an SL. And the Voight APOs are giants. For that matter, Leica's new 35mm summicron hood has always been a pain because of the blockage vs older "clip-off" hood. They might on one hand hurt sales,  but on the other, might make their a new version of the M..."L-mount alliance," without needing any other partners to join. It's like the reverse of the men's shaver paradigm...we'll give you the handle, but the blades will be expensive.

[jonoslack]

On 2/9/2025 at 8:39 AM, jaapv said:

Technically it should not be too difficult to build such a camera. Maybe eliminating the RF optics would even create enough space for IBIS The real problem will be whether the group of photographers who would shell out a not insignificant amount of money for a camera of limited functionality is large enough to make it viable commercially  

A vocal group of M lens lovers who struggle with RF focusing in a nerdy forum is a very narrow customer base, especially in a time that AF lens systems -not only by Leica- have equalled or surpassed the optical quality of M lenses  

Let’s wait and see whether Leica can  make such a commercial gamble work

Hi Jaap

You're right - oldies with bad eyesight is not a promising customer base. But Cool 30 somethings with money who fancy an M . . . but don't fancy a rangefinder is a huge customer base, especially in the Far East. Don't you think?

best

Jono

[costa43]

Well it looks like we will get the M11-E mid to late 2025 and the M12 in early 2027 then. I was kinda hoping (wishing) for a new M (rangefinder) this year. 

Edited February 12 by costa43

[la1402]

15 minutes ago, costa43 said:

Well it looks like we will get the M11-E mid to late 2025 and the M12 in early 2027 then. I was kinda hoping (wishing) for a new M (rangefinder) this year. 

I think an M-E would be a good signal that they embrace the future and plan to be here for another 100 years. The M is their flagship and needs to carry the Brand. The SL is too me-too for that and the Q too limited. 

[jonoslack]

43 minutes ago, pgk said:

Ummmm. There's more to exposure than simply considering highlights .....

I don't believe there more than simply considering highlights anymore - blown highlights is pretty much the only disaster you can perpetrate (short of leaving on the lens cap) - even 5 stops under-exposure is easy to recover. 

[FrozenInTime]

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41 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Hi Jaap

You're right - oldies with bad eyesight is not a promising customer base. But Cool 30 somethings with money who fancy an M . . . but don't fancy a rangefinder is a huge customer base, especially in the Far East. Don't you think?

best

Jono

Half of the population in Europe and North America need glasses:  https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/127okj2/map_showing_the_percentage_of_people_with_glasses/#lightbox

So an EVF with diopter adjustment or viewfinder with high eye-point relief should have a good market match ?

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Smogg:

I believe that selling 800-1000 units will not be a problem for Leica. There are three categories of customers who will provide this:
1. People who use Leica as a piece of jewelry on vacation. The EVF makes it easier for them to learn the camera. They will also buy a lot of red/gold accessories (soft release buttons and the like), they like to screw everything they can onto the camera.
2. Wealthy owners of cats and flower gardens.
3. Bokeh fans who buy heavy fast lenses and shoot mainly with them, but consider bokeh to be the main and only difference between a good photo and a bad one.

Do I understand correctly that those who oppose an EVF belong to the group that judges others with such silly prejudices?

vor 8 Stunden schrieb satijntje:

M stands for Meßsucher.
This is a fact.
And this fact will remain forever.

“Messsucher” does not mean that it has to be a purely optomechanical rangefinder.

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Smogg:

This is not possible since most modern lenses have an FLE design.

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Smogg:

Prefocus is exactly what I meant when I talked about the impossibility of full autofocus.

FLE lenses can also be easily focused using an EVF or an AF adapter. There is no need for "pre-focusing" unless you are working at close distance (<1m) or you are working with lenses with a long focal length (> 50mm) whose distance to the sensor plane must be varied further than the range that the AF adapter can cover.

[phojomatic]

29 minutes ago, costa43 said:

Well it looks like we will get the M11-E mid to late 2025 and the M12 in early 2027 then. I was kinda hoping (wishing) for a new M (rangefinder) this year. 

I think the M11-E has been rumored for at least a year and I always thought of it like the M-E (M9) with "reduced" functionality. I think there was a M240 variant too but can't remember that model name. However, the M11-E now very much makes sense as the EVF variant and pretty brilliantly adds a new cycle into the M > Monochrom > P > D > EVF product cycle. 

I forgot one point on the Stephan Daniel podcast and that talks about product lifecycle, which is minimum 3 and maximum 5 years. In concert with that, he says that it's getting harder to define what is needed in the next model...and states that 100 MP isn't out of the question, because if they used the roadmap from ten years ago, we would have 15mp cameras because that was plenty.

I have a prediction the M12 will be a 100 MP camera, like a mini Hasselblad X2D and maybe use triple resolution again to offer 100/60/36 MP or similar. That would be a huge leap from the M11...but as I type this, 100 MP and 100 years anniversary....Leica loves marketing opportunities lol.

 

[Smogg]

5 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Do I understand correctly that those who oppose an EVF belong to the group that judges others with such silly prejudices?

“Messsucher” does not mean that it has to be a purely optomechanical rangefinder.

FLE lenses can also be easily focused using an EVF or an AF adapter. There is no need for "pre-focusing" unless you are working at close distance (<1m) or you are working with lenses with a long focal length (> 50mm) whose distance to the sensor plane must be varied further than the range that the AF adapter can cover.

I am not judging anyone in any way, people have the right to even hammer nails with what they paid for. I am just saying that there are quite a lot of such people and 1000 units will definitely be sold, Leica can rest easy.

[phojomatic]

I made a quick mockup based on what I think the M11-E might look like, if ever released. I have no inside knowledge, fwiw, just a guess based on these forum discussions.

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[costa43]

Just now, phojomatic said:

I think the M11-E has been rumored for at least a year and I always thought of it like the M-E (M9) with "reduced" functionality. I think there was a M240 variant too but can't remember that model name. However, the M11-E now very much makes sense as the EVF variant and pretty brilliantly adds a new cycle into the M > Monochrom > P > D > EVF product cycle. 

I forgot one point on the Stephan Daniel podcast and that talks about product lifecycle, which is minimum 3 and maximum 5 years. In concert with that, he says that it's getting harder to define what is needed in the next model...and states that 100 MP isn't out of the question, because if they used the roadmap from ten years ago, we would have 15mp cameras because that was plenty.

I have a prediction the M12 will be a 100 MP camera, like a mini Hasselblad X2D and maybe use triple resolution again to offer 100/60/36 MP or similar. That would be a huge leap from the M11...but as I type this, 100 MP and 100 years anniversary....Leica loves marketing opportunities lol.

 

It does slot in nicely like you say. I also think the M12 could be 100mp. Leica relies on its existing base to upgrade, there is nothing really significant tech wise to tempt people at the moment, stacked sensor technology is of lower resolution and dynamic range and I doubt they will release a product so strongly focused on photography that has inferior image quality than it's predecessor. My hope was for a back to basics stripped back rangefinder but it seems it may be just pie in the sky stuff.

[Smogg]

11 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Do I understand correctly that those who oppose an EVF belong to the group that judges others with such silly prejudices?

“Messsucher” does not mean that it has to be a purely optomechanical rangefinder.

FLE lenses can also be easily focused using an EVF or an AF adapter. There is no need for "pre-focusing" unless you are working at close distance (<1m) or you are working with lenses with a long focal length (> 50mm) whose distance to the sensor plane must be varied further than the range that the AF adapter can cover.

I tried Noctilux 0.95 with Techart adapter a few years ago. Without prefocus I couldn't get good results.

[satijntje]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Smogg:

I tried Noctilux 0.95 with Techart adapter a few years ago. Without prefocus I couldn't get good results.

A 0.95 Nocti is too heavy for that Adapter……

 

[Smogg]

Just now, satijntje said:

A 0.95 Nocti is too heavy for that Adapter……

 

Weight was not the cause of the problem. With prefocus everything worked out great.

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb Smogg:

Weight was not the cause of the problem. With prefocus everything worked out great.

Even if you did'nt break it, the weight is out of specs and a problem for the adapter.

But you should provide more information:

• Was it the "latest" LM-EA9 or it's predecessor (LM-EA7). There are huge differences.
• Which camera did you use? A Sony A1 handles the strong aberrations of the Noctilux 0.95 better than e.g. the A7 series
  My Noctilux 50/1.0 needs no prefocusing on the A1
• The Noctilux 75 can be focused easily because of the much lower aberrations but due to its enormously long focus path, it requires a little pre-focusing at close range. Unfortunately, you must use it on a rig to relieve the adapter from the overweight as shown here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/310362-leica-90mm-images/?do=findComment&comment=5753855

Edited February 12 by 3D-Kraft.com

[Martin B]

I didn't read all the comments here, and can only express my personal wish for an EVF-M

+ Small compact body size similar to a traditional rangefinder based M camera
+ M-mount and NOT with L-mount since the latter requires an adapter to be used for M-lenses which defeats the purpose IMO (then I could directly use the Nikon Zf instead). 
+ Preferred location of EVF in the same left corner position as in other M cameras and not in the center of the camera body
+ Improved manual focus capability with EVF maybe combined with eye focus

Main reason why I am pretty sure that the EVF-M will not be equipped with L-mount is potential in-house competition with the already behind sales expectation SL series. And the EVF-M will not compromise future development of the traditional M-series either - the EVF-M will IMO be a successful addition. I am looking forward to see such EVF-M hitting the market soon. 

[Smogg]

7 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

Even if you did'nt break it, the weight is out of specs and a problem for the adapter.

But you should provide more information:

• Was it the "latest" LM-EA9 or it's predecessor (LM-EA7). There are huge differences.
• Which camera did you use? A Sony A1 handles the strong aberrations of the Noctilux 0.95 better than e.g. the A7 series
  My Noctilux 50/1.0 needs no prefocusing on the A1

This was a few years ago, so I used the A7rII (the most modern at the time) and the adapter available at the time, I don't remember the version. I don't think the extra weight is a problem as everything worked fine with prefocus.

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[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 34 Minuten schrieb Smogg:

This was a few years ago, so I used the A7rII (the most modern at the time) and the adapter available at the time, I don't remember the version. I don't think the extra weight is a problem as everything worked fine with prefocus.

Thanks for the extra info. The A7RII is from 2015 and it was one of the first in the A7 series with hybrid autofocus - far behind what one can expect today. Also the LM-AE7 was much bulkier, slower and far away from the performance you see from the LM-EA9. So, if we discuss on pros and cons of AF adapters for M-lenses, it should be done at today's technological level.

Edited February 12 by 3D-Kraft.com

[charlesphoto99]

6 hours ago, Alberti said:

I prefer the astonishment afterwards.

And that's the thing about flare (or should I say love of flare). It's mostly random. Sure, one can control it to a degree with a static subject, but for a moving subject trying to coordinate the two with an EVF would be near to impossible. Example with an M10 and 35 1.4 Lux asph below. The EVF in an M will only be successful and true to the M's legacy if it's entirely real time with zero blackout. I'm not sure if Leica is capable of that at this point in time. Alberti's statement above gets to the core reason, the soul and spirit, of why I choose an M with a rangefinder over other more 'functional' options. 

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