mpauliks Posted January 27 Share #101 Posted January 27 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) vor 20 Minuten schrieb jaapv: Not really surprising. Leica builds stills cameras with very good video added; Panasonic builds video cameras with very good stills added. (( OT - Please do not forget about Leica´s outstanding Cine lenses. Curious to see, what mirrorless S will look like, if it comes! https://leicastoremiami.com/collections/leica-cine-lenses )) Edited January 27 by mpauliks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 27 Posted January 27 Hi mpauliks, Take a look here The Leica SL3-S Review by Jonathan Slack. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
charlesphoto99 Posted January 27 Share #102 Posted January 27 On 1/24/2025 at 8:26 AM, la1402 said: Yeha its the lenses. Luxury brand + scarcity drives value. And some of them where very special. Zeiss lenses made for Nikon/Canon as well. I look back on some of the photos I took with the 'lowly' 12mp Nikon D3 and am like wow, these look amazing, and then recall I was mainly using Zeiss manual focus lenses at the time. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 27 Share #103 Posted January 27 (edited) 1 hour ago, jaapv said: Not really surprising. Leica builds stills cameras with very good video added; Panasonic builds video cameras with very good stills added. I would state that differently: Leica builds cameras with late to market stills and video technology but wraps them in a superior camera body with a superior menu interface and offers them at a premium price; Panasonic builds state of the art hybrid cameras that have an overly complex and unintuitive menu system paired with a camera body that matches its much lower price. Edited January 27 by hdmesa grammar 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 27 Share #104 Posted January 27 ^ Adding more video features to the S5II/X doesn't make it any less of a stills camera than the SL3-S is. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 28 Share #105 Posted January 28 12 hours ago, hdmesa said: I would state that differently: Leica builds cameras with late to market stills and video technology but wraps them in a superior camera body with a superior menu interface and offers them at a premium price; Panasonic builds state of the art hybrid cameras that have an overly complex and unintuitive menu system paired with a camera body that matches its much lower price. Actually I find the menu system of Panasonic cameras quite simple and intelligently divided into chapters… It allows me to get very near an analog camera experience. Leica has a brilliant first screen but after that an amorphous list. The sleek design with a minimal use of physical controls makes it more digital I would not call one concept superior to the other, just different. 12 hours ago, hdmesa said: ^ Adding more video features to the S5II/X doesn't make it any less of a stills camera than the SL3-S is. All cameras are a collection of compromises. The choices determine the scope of the camera. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 28 Share #106 Posted January 28 6 hours ago, jaapv said: Actually I find the menu system of Panasonic cameras quite simple and intelligently divided into chapters… It allows me to get very near an analog camera experience. S5IIX menu was not as bad as my Nikon Zf, but IIRC, it did have interconnected features and dependencies that were too spread out to be intuitive and easily remembered. Good thing they do have pages/chapters as I felt like I had to constantly flip between them to accomplish some tasks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 28 Share #107 Posted January 28 Advertisement (gone after registration) 6 hours ago, jaapv said: Actually I find the menu system of Panasonic cameras quite simple and intelligently divided into chapters… It allows me to get very near an analog camera experience. I agree with @hdmesa that Panasonics menus are overly complex, like those of most manufacturers. On the one side we have Hasselblad and Leica, on the other side all other manufacturers. For me, no digital camera comes close to the simplicity and great experience of a 35mm film camera. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 28 Share #108 Posted January 28 53 minutes ago, SrMi said: For me, no digital camera comes close to the simplicity and great experience of a 35mm film camera. +1 The M10 Monochrom comes closest to B&W film for me. I have no interest in video, and hate it when my SL2 mysteriously finds its way there occasionally. Unfortunately, the opposite complexities and lesser flexibility associated with the PP/printing part of the film workflow prompted my switch to digital. Trade-offs. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted January 28 Author Share #109 Posted January 28 1 hour ago, SrMi said: I agree with @hdmesa that Panasonics menus are overly complex, like those of most manufacturers. On the one side we have Hasselblad and Leica, on the other side all other manufacturers. For me, no digital camera comes close to the simplicity and great experience of a 35mm film camera. I think it's what I like so much about the M11-D, I only use the function button to check the battery (and update firmware as required). Otherwise it's all as I set it in the first place. . . . . but it kind of has the best of both worlds when combined with the phone - It's too long since I looked at the Panasonic menus to judge - Sony drives me crazy, and like you I really like the recent Leica menu system (including the SL3-S of course) best Jono 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 28 Share #110 Posted January 28 2 hours ago, SrMi said: I agree with @hdmesa that Panasonics menus are overly complex, like those of most manufacturers. On the one side we have Hasselblad and Leica, on the other side all other manufacturers. For me, no digital camera comes close to the simplicity and great experience of a 35mm film camera. I think that the words “I think” are far more appropriate than a highly debatable “are”. I really wish that Leica for their main menu would follow Panasonic’s lead and divide the main menu up in a series of logical chapters instead of forcing the user to scroll through a six page list containing a mishmash of items and submenus. Retaining the practical icons in the pre-menu of course. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpauliks Posted January 28 Share #111 Posted January 28 (edited) vor 51 Minuten schrieb jaapv: I think that the words “I think” are far more appropriate than a highly debatable “are”. I really wish that Leica for their main menu would follow Panasonic’s lead and divide the main menu up in a series of logical chapters instead of forcing the user to scroll through a six page list containing a mishmash of items and submenus. Retaining the practical icons in the pre-menu of course. Only a few accepted the brand new UI design of Leica T! There we could move all individual needed stuff to a menu, which was great IMO! But I agree with you! Might be, we are the minority Jaap! lol Edited January 28 by mpauliks 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smogg Posted January 28 Share #112 Posted January 28 1 hour ago, jonoslack said: … Sony drives me crazy, and like you I really like the recent Leica menu system (including the SL3-S of course) best Jono The Sony menu is actually complicated, but it's enough to dig into it once and set all the buttons to turn on the desired modes, which when pressed change the basic scenario to the one assigned to the button. After that, you don't need to go into the menu at all. For example, I have different focus types hanging on three different buttons, which are selected instantly, unlike the slow profile switching in the SL3. I haven't pressed the menu button on the A7RV for a year, except when I need to format the memory card. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 28 Share #113 Posted January 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, jaapv said: I think that the words “I think” are far more appropriate than a highly debatable “are”. I really wish that Leica for their main menu would follow Panasonic’s lead and divide the main menu up in a series of logical chapters instead of forcing the user to scroll through a six page list containing a mishmash of items and submenus. Retaining the practical icons in the pre-menu of course. That is true, though my opinion is based on experience, as few have. I regularly use Sony, Canon, Pentax, Nikon, Hasselblad, Fuji, and Leica cameras (latest models). I find the Nikon menu system not as complicated as others, but that is only because I have used Nikon only to photograph for a long time and have spent a lot of time studying Thom Hogan's books. Therefore, I believe that people who use one camera exclusively stop noticing how complicated it is. Also, my professional background is based on Niklaus Wirth and Edgar Dijkstra's teaching that simplicity is paramount to using a tool effectively. “Simplicity is a great virtue but it requires hard work to achieve it and education to appreciate it. And to make matters worse: complexity sells better.” ― Edsger Wybe Dijkstra Edited January 28 by SrMi 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 28 Share #114 Posted January 28 1 hour ago, jonoslack said: I think it's what I like so much about the M11-D, I only use the function button to check the battery (and update firmware as required). Otherwise it's all as I set it in the first place. . . . . but it kind of has the best of both worlds when combined with the phone - It's too long since I looked at the Panasonic menus to judge - Sony drives me crazy, and like you I really like the recent Leica menu system (including the SL3-S of course) best Jono I have never used M11-D or M10-D, but now I am even more curious about how it would affect my photography workflow. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted January 28 Author Share #115 Posted January 28 1 hour ago, Smogg said: The Sony menu is actually complicated, but it's enough to dig into it once and set all the buttons to turn on the desired modes, which when pressed change the basic scenario to the one assigned to the button. After that, you don't need to go into the menu at all. For example, I have different focus types hanging on three different buttons, which are selected instantly, unlike the slow profile switching in the SL3. I haven't pressed the menu button on the A7RV for a year, except when I need to format the memory card. I'm sure you're right - with the Sony stuff, when it's set up you don't need to use the menus (the OM-1 is the same). Trouble is that if you 'dip' into any camera system it seems hard to understand and complicated. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted January 28 Author Share #116 Posted January 28 1 hour ago, SrMi said: I have never used M11-D or M10-D, but now I am even more curious about how it would affect my photography workflow. I love using it - especially as for most of my shooting time I'm watching and watching to see what's gonna go wrong! 🫣 - and of course you can't really do that with the M11-D. I actually rather liked the fake winder on the M10-D, but I did think it was rather cheesy. The M11-D is quite austere - no frills, but the FOTOS app connectivity means that you don't really have to fiddle with the function button. It's a nice object and a lovely relaxing experience . . . . . but if you have to look, the pictures are in your pocket! 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 28 Share #117 Posted January 28 1 hour ago, Smogg said: The Sony menu is actually complicated, but it's enough to dig into it once and set all the buttons to turn on the desired modes, which when pressed change the basic scenario to the one assigned to the button. After that, you don't need to go into the menu at all. For example, I have different focus types hanging on three different buttons, which are selected instantly, unlike the slow profile switching in the SL3. I haven't pressed the menu button on the A7RV for a year, except when I need to format the memory card. That set-once-and-forget never really worked for me, as there are always things to modify, including accidental changes. The Favorites or My Menu are essential to me on those cameras. Only Leica and Hasselblad do not require them. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD_50 Posted January 28 Share #118 Posted January 28 Most of the menu complexity I see in high end cameras is due in part to added features and flexibility to fine tune them. Some I think handle this better than others (Leica vs Nikon is an example). If the top level Sony (A1 II), Canon (R1 or R5 II), and Nikon (Z9 or Z8) had only the features and flexibility of a film 35mm like a Leica M, they wouldn’t need all the menus because there would be no choices to make. Get rid of ISO selection, AF, continuous drive, advanced metering, video, etc and you’ll remove most of the menu options on those cameras. The M10-D and M11-D comments allude to the desire to have a completely different shooting experience, rather than having a well thought out UI on a highly capable camera. What I like about Leica is they’re doing the best job in my opinion of including the features and flexibility while also keeping the UI simple and straightforward. I do agree the long scrolling list could be improved with some targeted groupings. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 28 Share #119 Posted January 28 I think Leica missed the boat when they dedicated the selection "rewind" wheel on the M to ISO. Had it been dedicated to user profiles the user would have had his favourite setup for different circumstances at his fingertips. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 28 Share #120 Posted January 28 4 hours ago, jaapv said: I think that the words “I think” are far more appropriate than a highly debatable “are”. I really wish that Leica for their main menu would follow Panasonic’s lead and divide the main menu up in a series of logical chapters instead of forcing the user to scroll through a six page list containing a mishmash of items and submenus. Retaining the practical icons in the pre-menu of course. I remember being taught in school never to write, "in my opinion" because it's always inferred. We're not writing content for encyclopedias here. That said, I still say it in order to avoid the wrath of the facts police 📷 🚔🚨 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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