The Earliest Film used in Leicas

[Mark Osterman]

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Hello. I am Mark Osterman, formerly process historian at George Eastman Museum in Rochester, NY. Not sure if this group has a technical history interest in Leica cameras, but this winter I plan to make some samples of 1919-1925 era blue sensitive slow film to shoot in a 1928 Leica A I recently purchased and am currently having CLA. My wife, France Scully Osterman, and I research and demonstrate processes from Niepce’s bitumen Heliograph up to gelatin bromide sprocketed films in our studio in Rochester. Interested parties are welcome to contact me directly through our website www.collodion.org

[sandro]

Hello Mark, welcome to the forum. We have quite a few people with technical interest, both in camera's and lenses and in specific film matters. How old and older black & white negative film types produced specific images is something of interest to several people in the forum.

While we're on it: sometime ago I asked the George Eastman Museum if they could tell me when Kodak first produced infrared b&w film in 35mm format. The reply said 1935, but since I have gathered material which shows that instead it was in 1933. Would you happen to know more about early Kodak infrared film in 35mm format?

Lex

[willeica]

On 1/12/2025 at 3:52 PM, Mark Osterman said:

Hello. I am Mark Osterman, formerly process historian at George Eastman Museum in Rochester, NY. Not sure if this group has a technical history interest in Leica cameras, but this winter I plan to make some samples of 1919-1925 era blue sensitive slow film to shoot in a 1928 Leica A I recently purchased and am currently having CLA. My wife, France Scully Osterman, and I research and demonstrate processes from Niepce’s bitumen Heliograph up to gelatin bromide sprocketed films in our studio in Rochester. Interested parties are welcome to contact me directly through our website www.collodion.org

Roland Zwiers from the Netherlands has done considerable work on this subject. I will see if I can find some of his articles and send them to you by PM as a PDF. 

William 

[derleicaman]

William, I sent Mark Roland's 28 page overview article of early films used in the Leica, starting with the Ur.

Let me know what other articles you might be sending so we don't bombard Mark with this.

Bill

[willeica]

4 hours ago, derleicaman said:

William, I sent Mark Roland's 28 page overview article of early films used in the Leica, starting with the Ur.

Let me know what other articles you might be sending so we don't bombard Mark with this.

Bill

I sent Roland’s Viewfinder article to Mark. I have 2 other articles by Roland on this topic which were published in Britain and which I could send. It is hard to figure out what exactly Mark is looking for, so I think I will give him an email introduction to Roland. I have a lot of material I could give him, but he seems more interested in conducting a trial with some film made today in accordance with the methods in place in the 1910s and 1920s. He has expertise in the fields of historic films and photographic materials. I will communicate with him by email today.

William 

[jaapv]

Roland is active in the German part of this forum:

Last visited in November.

[willeica]

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47 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Roland is active in the German part of this forum:

Last visited in November.

I know Roland well and we communicate regularly by email. We are both members of the Photographic Collectors Club of Great Britain (PCCGB). I will do my best to link him up with Mark.

William 

[willeica]

This will give some idea of Mark's level of expertise.

William 

Edited January 15 by willeica

[Ambro51]

Nitrate film?

Edited January 15 by Ambro51

[willeica]

16 hours ago, Ambro51 said:

Nitrate film?

Ray, I have sent Mark Mike Eckman’s piece about M875, which includes your replica. He wants to conduct a test with a 1928 I Model A. He has access to some period materials through his former association with Kodak. I did not note any reference to nitrate stock, though.

William 

[qqphot]

On 1/15/2025 at 4:30 AM, willeica said:

This will give some idea of Mark's level of expertise.

William 

All that and the banjo, too!

[wlaidlaw]

Was not all stock generally in use in still cameras and 35mm movie cameras, cellulose nitrate (effectively gun cotton) up until at least the mid to late 1930's, when it was replaced by cellulose acetate, which much more stable and less inflammable. It is surprising that this change took so long, as cellulose acetate was in limited use for 16mm cine film before WW1. Maybe there was a cost factor involved.

Some of the older pre-WW2 35mm movie "shorts" (mostly Chaplin and Harold Lloyd) in stock at my school, where I was one of the projectionists, were on nitrate film and you had to watch like a hawk, ready to cut the arc lamp on the Zeiss projector the instant the film jammed, usually due to torn sprocket holes. We had a fire in the projection room with nitrate film, due to not having the arc light quenched quickly enough (by master not me), which we fairly quickly extinguished. However, the school decided to dispose of the old nitrate film and switch to a 16mm projector, where the film rental costs were in any case, much lower. The Siemens mercury arc rectifier, that powered the arc lamp, was appropriated by the physics department to charge up the 24V lead acid batteries for the school's HAM radios, ex-army No.19 sets. 

Wilson

 

[UliWer]

I am not quite sure whether Mark wants to know anything about early film material used with the Leica or whether he wants to introduce his project.

The former question is answered by the Leitz brochure from Sept. 1929 'Wie arbeitet man mit der "Leica"-Kamera?'

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On p. 3 they say that the "Leica-Spezialfilm" by Perutz was the recommended film material as it had the findest grain:

I remember having read anywhere - though I don't remember where - that the whole project of the Leica Camera was threatened when Perutz announced they would only produce material with more grain as the cinema industry wouldn't pay for the finer one. With this material the quality of the printed photos from a Leica could not be guaranteed. The crisis was solved when other producers - especially AGFA - offered new fine grained film.

P.S: here you find an older thread about the Perutz Film with further links:

 

Edited January 29 by UliWer

[willeica]

On 1/29/2025 at 1:14 PM, UliWer said:

I am not quite sure whether Mark wants to know anything about early film material used with the Leica or whether he wants to introduce his project.

The former question is answered by the Leitz brochure from Sept. 1929 'Wie arbeitet man mit der "Leica"-Kamera?'

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

On p. 3 they say that the "Leica-Spezialfilm" by Perutz was the recommended film material as it had the findest grain:

I remember having read anywhere - though I don't remember where - that the whole project of the Leica Camera was threatened when Perutz announced they would only produce material with more grain as the cinema industry wouldn't pay for the finer one. With this material the quality of the printed photos from a Leica could not be guaranteed. The crisis was solved when other producers - especially AGFA - offered new fine grained film.

P.S: here you find an older thread about the Perutz Film with further links:

 

There is. a lot about Perutz Black and White Films here, but this covers mainly later periods 

https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Colour_Darkroom/Early_Perutz.html

I used this material after I had developed a 70 year old roll of Perutz Black and White Bulk Film in 2020. All the film edge had was that it had been made by Perutz. There was no indication of speed or type or age, no DIN, no Scheiner etc. The film was in a FILCA, so we did not know what type of film it was until it had been developed. A friend who is an expert on such matters gave me development instructions, based on the information I gave that it could be up to 85 years old (from c 1935), but information in the actual images, when developed, indicated that it had been used in 1950. There was a lot of grain on the images which had suffered 'premature exposure damage' but the later images were protected and looked quite fine-grained to me. See example below:

This image was captured on Perutz film in June 1950 and was not developed until August 2020. 

Our friend and fellow forum member, Roland Zwiers, has done some research on early films from Agfa, Perutz and other German film manufacturers in the period from about 1915 up to about 1935. I sent some of Roland's material to Mark, but he seemed to be familiar with it already.

William 

[beoon]

The earliest Leitz literature from January 1925 (List Photo No 2049) through to May 1926 (List Photo No 2208) do not mention any specific film types.

The film is only listed under Leitz codeword "Filmo" (3 film strips each 5 1/4 feet long in lightproof tin)

However the first true "system" brochure from November 1926 (List Photo No 2238) details specific film types and their associated Leitz codewords.

Detailed below

Regards

Alan

 

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Edited February 3 by beoon

[willeica]

1 hour ago, beoon said:

The earliest Leitz literature from January 1925 (List Photo No 2049) through to May 1926 (List Photo No 2208) do not mention any specific film types.

The film is only listed under Leitz codeword "Filmo" (3 film strips each 5 1/4 feet long in lightproof tin)

However the first true "system" brochure from November 1926 (List Photo No 2238) details specific film types and their associated Leitz codewords.

Detailed below

Regards

Alan

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Alan, they would have had to supply 35mm film as it was not commonly available from other sources. The disposable cassette had not yet been invented, so these must have been in rolls/spools or tins for loading into FILCAs. The Perutz Fliegerfilm is described as yellow-green and the Kino film is orthochromatic. The Agfa film was not orthochromatic. 16/17 Scheiner is only about 3 ISO which is slower than I would have thought. When I was using a VPK I had assumed film speeds ( based on the manual) of 6 or 8 ISO and that was using a camera from 1915. Tageslichtspulen would imply daylight loading spools, which are described in Leica manuals of the period.

Any thoughts?

William 

Edited February 3 by willeica

[wlaidlaw]

My father used to order 35mm bulk film from Lizars in Aberdeen that came in ready cut lengths for a FILCA. Neither my great uncle John nor my grandfather for their respective Leicas (Model 3 + Hektor and Model 2 + Elmar) were at all good with their hands, according to my father. He would therefore load a few FILCA cassettes at a time in the darkroom; some for use by my grandfather and himself in the Model 2 and some for great uncle in his model 3. He recalled this film came in cans marked Agfa and Gevaert for Leica and were a bit faster than the Kodachrome he used later (ASA10). He did not think that anyone in the north of Scotland stocked the preloaded Kodak cassettes until around 1938. The family company's New York agent visited in 1937 and brought a couple of cassettes of Kodachrome 135. This had to be sent to Kodak UK in Wealdstone, Middlesex for processing, which took weeks. My father got the factory carpenter to make a holder to go into the family magic lantern to project the slides. I still have the Watson's magic lantern and a 1/4 plate holder but sadly the 35mm slide holder had disappeared and was not with the lantern, which I found in an attic above the company offices. Sadly my mother threw away thousands of my father's colour slides after he died in 1976 as "clutter". 

Wilson