Used Leica M10 for B&W

[pedaes]

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2 hours ago, pgh said:

automatic monochrome raw conversions for downloading

It is a converted jpg file you see, the dng is untouched.

Edited December 17, 2024 by pedaes

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[jaapv]

23 hours ago, 250swb said:

But of course the M10 is better than an M10M for B&W,

I disagree completely. A monochrome sensor lacks the Bayer filter which:

a. Significantly lowers resolution because there is no interpolation
b. Significantly decreases tonal differentiation because there is no colour interpolation.

There is no way to recover those data in postprocessing. A monochrome camera will render each pixel unaltered to your postprocessing software and ultimately print.

https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/114269/bayer-color-effective-true-resolution

https://www.pentaxforums.com/reviews/pentax-k-3-mark-iii-monochrome-review/why-a-monochrome-camera.html

[pgh]

24 minutes ago, pedaes said:

I have a M10 and didn't know there is such a setting. I can't believe it would give as much control as converting in LR and Silver Effex etc.

Well no, I used it only for review of images to keep my mind on black and white in the field. It's a psychological hack only. 

When it came to the actual photographs I only used the dng files. 

[jdlaing]

50 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I disagree completely. A monochrome sensor lacks the Bayer filter which:

a. Significantly lowers resolution because there is no interpolation
b. Significantly decreases tonal differentiation because there is no colour interpolation.

There is no way to recover those data in postprocessing. A monochrome camera will render each pixel unaltered to your postprocessing software and ultimately print.

https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/114269/bayer-color-effective-true-resolution

https://www.pentaxforums.com/reviews/pentax-k-3-mark-iii-monochrome-review/why-a-monochrome-camera.html

.dng files, whether from a color or monochrome camera, are processed images. Leica does not use a proprietary raw file. Even a proprietary raw file is a processed image. 

[LeAlain]

8 hours ago, AceVentura1986 said:

I’ve got an M10P and an M10M. IMHO, blur caused by camera shaking at lower shutter speeds is a bit overblown at 40mpx (M10M and M10R) but def a serious consideration w the M11. I shot them both before committing to the M10 platform. 

Can you get excellent BW from an M10 thru Lightroom magic? Yes, def. Will it equal the M10M at the pixel level? Usually no, the M10M just has too many advantages in this regard.  For example, I can push an M10M file a full five stops in LR without generating any artifacts or banding whereas I’m more limited w the M10P, generally to about 2-3 stops max. For some, that may be a significant issue; for others, maybe not so much. 

Does this ultimately matter? That depends on the user. It mattered enough to me that I replaced my ME and M9M w the M19P and M10M. Of course, YMMV. 

I see your point .

 

damn.  I really am in doubt, I wish I could find an M10M to test. The thing is, only Berlin has one in a shop.

Or I can blindfolded buy one on MPB for 5K but that's maybe a little risky.

Edited December 17, 2024 by LeAlain

[250swb]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

I disagree completely. A monochrome sensor lacks the Bayer filter which:

a. Significantly lowers resolution because there is no interpolation
b. Significantly decreases tonal differentiation because there is no colour interpolation.

There is no way to recover those data in postprocessing. A monochrome camera will render each pixel unaltered to your postprocessing software and ultimately print.

https://photo.stackexchange.com/questions/114269/bayer-color-effective-true-resolution

https://www.pentaxforums.com/reviews/pentax-k-3-mark-iii-monochrome-review/why-a-monochrome-camera.html

It's kind of a locker room argument that you have going on there, but it's safe to say it's not what you have but what you are able to do with it that counts.

[Dazzajl]

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1 hour ago, LeAlain said:

Or I can blindfolded buy one on MPB for 5K but that's maybe a little risky.

It really isn’t, if you don’t like it, you can return it. And if you go that way, you have a two week period so you can give it a proper run out before you have to commit. 

Edited December 17, 2024 by Dazzajl

[jaapv]

51 minutes ago, 250swb said:

It's kind of a locker room argument that you have going on there, but it's safe to say it's not what you have but what you are able to do with it that counts.

But if you don’t have it there is nothing that you can do with it

[250swb]

Just now, jaapv said:

But if you don’t have it there is nothing that you can do with it

Exactly, if you don't start with colour you have no arrows for your bow, you are stuck with firing a stick.

[jaapv]

I don’t want to start in colour if I’m going to end in BW using Bayer messed-up data. You may not, but I see a clear difference.

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

A monochrome sensor lacks the Bayer filter which:

a. Significantly lowers resolution because there is no interpolation

The Bayer filter does not lower the resolution. It's the debayering / demosaicing algorithm for the color conversion that eats up some spatial resolution.

Theoretically (if Leica would store the pure raw information from the bayer sensor) you could get the same graylevel resolution also from the sensor with a bayer filter layer on top. You only would have to deal with the different exposure levels from the pixels depending on the light transmission of the color filter sitting on top of the photo diode. Problem is, that this light transmission also changes with the wave length of the light, so it would work only in a world that is already B/W. Theoretically, you could also get an HDR gray level file with a significantly wider dynamic range with a single shot (but again with decreased spatial resolution). A similar trick is done with Sony's HDR sensors where neighboring pixels are exposed at different ISO levels.

So perhaps, Leica could also think about an M11MH (for high dynamic range but with reduced spatial resolution (not really an issue anymore with the 60MP sensor)) when they apply a pattern of different ND filters on top of the photodiodes instead of the R, G, B color filters. I personally would find that much more interesting, than a simple monochrome sensor because resolution and high-ISO is not an issue anymore with modern CMOS sensors, but they still suffer from limited DR compared to the human eye.

[jaapv]

Yes obviously ( see my earlier posts. ) But without the filter demosaicing is not needed. 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, 250swb said:

Exactly, if you don't start with colour you have no arrows for your bow, you are stuck with firing a stick.

What arrows? Just global colour filter simulation, nothing else and you should do it in front of the lens. 

[250swb]

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

What arrows? Just global colour filter simulation, nothing else and you should do it in front of the lens. 

A great idea except the Monochrom sensor and a filter on the lens does not respond to different colours matching the same sensitivity as B&W film. So while it may not be the purists idea of how to do it starting with a colour image and processing it in something like Silver Efex allows the emulation of the usual types of B&W filter, yellow, red, orange, green, and blue and in varying strengths matching what could be done with film. A monochrome sensor is redundant and increasingly a novelty. Until the last twenty five years people have been looking at the world in colour and using their minds eye to create B&W images on film, but now many can't 'see' in B&W and need a £9000 dedicated camera to help them, lol.

[Chris W]

I'm in the market for a (new to me) M rangefinder. It's a shame these discussions often get bogged down in semantics and purist arguments.

I can see how the M10M is a superior B&W camera in some ways - more recent sensor, lack of colour filter etc...

There are comparison videos on Youtube between the much older M246 and M10 and it's often hard to see a difference.

I just shot with a Hasselblad X1D2 for three months while I travelled across the world. I processed 75% of the images to be B&W using Lightroom and the images are fantastic. The people I was shooting for were unanimous in praising the final result. Sure, I can agree that if I had used a dedicated B&W body, especially a sophisticated model like the M10M, the final images might have been better, but we're talking at the margins for most people.

If you have the budget I can see owning both very good colour and b&w camera systems, but if you don't, then a high quality colour body will often convert to b&w very well indeed.

[jaapv]

50 minutes ago, 250swb said:

A great idea except the Monochrom sensor and a filter on the lens does not respond to different colours matching the same sensitivity as B&W film. So while it may not be the purists idea of how to do it starting with a colour image and processing it in something like Silver Efex allows the emulation of the usual types of B&W filter, yellow, red, orange, green, and blue and in varying strengths matching what could be done with film. A monochrome sensor is redundant and increasingly a novelty. Until the last twenty five years people have been looking at the world in colour and using their minds eye to create B&W images on film, but now many can't 'see' in B&W and need a £9000 dedicated camera to help them, lol.

Incorrect. Leica uses coatings on the cover glass to perfect the tone curve. They even delayed the M8 introduction to tweak those coatings to match the tone curve of Delta 100. They even published a Greta Macbeth chart to show this. 

[250swb]

5 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Incorrect. Leica uses coatings on the cover glass to perfect the tone curve. They even delayed the M8 introduction to tweak those coatings to match the tone curve of Delta 100. They even published a Greta Macbeth chart to show this. 

The tone curve and sensitivity to the spectrum are separate things, hence a small IR problem.

[jaapv]

That has absolutely nothing to do with it. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pgh]

On 12/18/2024 at 3:26 AM, 250swb said:

A monochrome sensor is redundant and increasingly a novelty. Until the last twenty five years people have been looking at the world in colour and using their minds eye to create B&W images on film

In many cases yes, but in some cases just no. 

It’s why I bought an m10M (2, actually!) after shooting solely black and white on my regular m10 for a couple of years. It wasn’t about needing a camera to help me see in bw. It’s that the image quality is concretely different and better, and if you are good to give up color it is a real gain. This only reveals itself in certain situations, that much is true - but if the work one does is often in lower light and/or printing larger, as both are true for me - then it’s certainly not redundant. 

[photophile]

I have an M10. Most of my personal (and some pro) work is B&W. If ISO/pixel peeping is not a concern, I still reach for my original M8. Even at a paltry 10 Mp...the monochrome images from that tool are second to none IF one remains under the 1250  iso ( and preferably 640 max). Post in silver effex and side to side with my M3/M4-2/M6 and trix-x images - the M8 simply shines. Still. Fwiw...