Lumix 70-300 on SL3 (shutter shock issues).

[SrMi]

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Here is a relevant article with measurements for a Sony camera:

What’s the fastest shutter speed you should use with EFCS on the a7RII?

Summary:

- There is a reason why some manufacturers limit the max EFCS shutter speed to 1/2000.

- The recommendation is to switch to mechanical at the latest with 1/1000.

Jim has done other EFCS analyses on the EFCS on his blog.

Many manufacturers have an auto mode that switches from EFCS to mechanical around 1/250 sec. I always shoot in that mode.

[hdmesa]

Another great thing about EFCS is how quiet it is compared to full mechanical shutter. It would dramatically improve the shutter sound of the M11 and SL3. It cuts the clicking/clanking shutter sounds by half. The rear curtain alone is so quiet.

Full mechanical – 4 clicks

1. Shutter closes before the exposure can begin
2. Shutter opens to start exposure
3. Shutter closes to end exposure
4. Shutter opens to resume live view/metering

Electronic Front Curtain Shutter / EFCS – 2 clicks

Exposure begins electronically and silently

1. Shutter closes to end exposure
2. Shutter opens to resume live view/metering

But by all means, let's all keep living in the days before 2007 when EFCS was first introduced 🫠

Leica is simply waiting this out until they have a stacked sensor fast enough to eliminate rolling shutter, thereby negating the need for EFCS.

[BernardC]

21 hours ago, SrMi said:

That is wrong. EFCS resets the sensor instead of closing and opening the mechanical shutter. The readout (scan) phase is the same as with the mechanical shutter. EFCS works with any shutter speed.

21 hours ago, SrMi said:

In my experience, almost every camera owner with EFCS uses EFCS (with automatic switchover at higher shutter speeds). Sony is now shipping some cameras with only EFCS and no mechanical shutters.

Think about it, those statements are contradictory. Every manufacturer wouldn't lock it out if it worked. Also, the Sony camera with only one shutter curtain (A7c) is a bean counter's special. It's been de-contented to the extreme. The reason why it has even a single shutter curtain is because Sony sells flashes.

21 hours ago, SrMi said:

Since you have no experience with EFCS except from perusing Google search results, I assume you have misunderstood what has been written.

I know this is meant to be offensive, but I could take it two ways. Either it's a trite straw man (you know what they say about people who assume!), or it's a jab at internet search in general. It sounds far-fetched, but a previous complaint in this thread is that, try as they may, EFCS boosters are unable to find even a single complaint about the tech online (while simultaneously being dismissive of the issues they claim they were unable to find). It could be both, of course!

 

So here we are, back where we started. It seems we can't have any mention of the limitations of EFCS without schoolyard insults hurled at us. Even the mention that there are pros and cons leads to denial and feigned ignorance (it's not 1995 anymore, we all know how to do a search). I expect that from lesser forums, but this isn't the place for a "who can shout loudest" contest. I understand that it upsets you when someone says "people have documented the following issues," but shouting won't help, and it certainly won't convince anyone.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 12/27/2024 at 12:48 AM, BernardC said:

Executive summary: EFCS only works in a limited range of shutter speeds. It doesn't work at high speeds that are much faster than the sensor's scan speed (for reasons which should be obvious), and it has no effect at longer speeds where shutter shock isn't prevalent. It often misbehaves at wider apertures (not just 1.4, there are plenty of real-life example with lenses that don't go to 1.4). In that case you'll get a very distracting and unaesthetic texture outside of the image plane. Many experienced wedding photographers consider this phenomenon alone to be reason enough to avoid it; it makes irreplaceable images unsalable. Obviously, these photographers with decades of experience, established businesses with web site that you can visit, etc., will get called all sorts of names, because they offend the EFCS faithful. As do I for reading what they have to say; something you can do by using the search bar on your browser. Don't do it, you'll get no ends of abuse from the aforementioned crew.

 

 

I photographed weddings for 3 decades (nearly 1500 of them), among other jobs and definitely did have the issues you describe. 10 years ago.

Since then the manufacturers have rejigged the way it’s implemented in cameras so it is on where it’s useful and off at higher shutter speeds. Usually around 1/1500th or so. This completely removes any issues with the ugly blur, while improving IQ in the affected shutter speeds ranges. So yes, there were issues. Not really there now though.

It’s not abuse and the only one thinking it’s personal is you. YOu seem to find our actual experience with EFCS less useful than your reading on the internet (which is always correct, apparently), so be it. If we can get Leica to implement it it will simply be a function you don’t use. Everybody can be happy.

Gordon

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

YOu seem to find our actual experience with EFCS less useful than your reading on the internet (which is always correct, apparently)

Yet another straw man, and very transparently untrue.

I shot weddings with some of the most successful professionals in my country. I'm not sure why you need to dismiss other wedding photographers' experiences. That's always a red flag. If someone says that they are seeing an issue now, they probably aren't lying. 10 years ago very few wedding photographers used mirrorless anyway, at least at the high end. The SL didn't come-out until 2015, and when I started using mine the top pros were curious to try it out. You didn't see a wave of mirrorless users in that business until Canon and Nikon released their first serious models (2018 or 2019). I'm sure you can find examples of people who used a7's before that, but they had a bad rep in my market. To be fair to Sony, they responded and released bodies that could cut it by the time C&N had their own mirrorless out.

[SrMi]

5 hours ago, BernardC said:

Yet another straw man, and very transparently untrue.

I shot weddings with some of the most successful professionals in my country. I'm not sure why you need to dismiss other wedding photographers' experiences. That's always a red flag. If someone says that they are seeing an issue now, they probably aren't lying. 10 years ago very few wedding photographers used mirrorless anyway, at least at the high end. The SL didn't come-out until 2015, and when I started using mine the top pros were curious to try it out. You didn't see a wave of mirrorless users in that business until Canon and Nikon released their first serious models (2018 or 2019). I'm sure you can find examples of people who used a7's before that, but they had a bad rep in my market. To be fair to Sony, they responded and released bodies that could cut it by the time C&N had their own mirrorless out.

You misconstrue what others write to find something to be offended by. You avoid questions that could help us better understand your point and facts that could change your worldview, making it challenging to have a productive discussion. However, I cannot be silent while you spread misinformation on this forum.

[hdmesa]

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15 hours ago, BernardC said:

...It seems we can't have any mention of the limitations of EFCS...

We've all mentioned the drawbacks of EFCS in very specific detail. We've also pointed out how the modern implementation of EFCS works hand-in-hand with the mechanical shutter to avoid EFCS limitations. Can you explain how EFCS as implemented by manufacturers today can cause issues? If you're not sure how to explain it, please link to an article you found that gave you this impression. We can't really have an honest discussion about EFCS if you don't want to engage that question.

The only current drawbacks to EFCS I know of would be cameras that exclusively have EFCS and don't offer a mechanical shutter. But those are usually less inexpensive consumer cameras that likely only ever see smaller maximum aperture zoom lenses used with them. But you could definitely point to that as an example of EFCS's limitations. I can't think of any other currently made cameras above the consumer grade that have issues with EFCS because they all use EFCS only in the range of shutter speeds where it's beneficial and not at speeds where it has limitations.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

7 hours ago, BernardC said:

Yet another straw man, and very transparently untrue.

I shot weddings with some of the most successful professionals in my country. I'm not sure why you need to dismiss other wedding photographers' experiences. That's always a red flag. If someone says that they are seeing an issue now, they probably aren't lying. 10 years ago very few wedding photographers used mirrorless anyway, at least at the high end. The SL didn't come-out until 2015, and when I started using mine the top pros were curious to try it out. You didn't see a wave of mirrorless users in that business until Canon and Nikon released their first serious models (2018 or 2019). I'm sure you can find examples of people who used a7's before that, but they had a bad rep in my market. To be fair to Sony, they responded and released bodies that could cut it by the time C&N had their own mirrorless out.

Maybe different markets but here mirrorless adoption was reasonably rapid. The Original A7 was quite popular here and whereas you state most didn’t move until Canikon entered the market, They did here. Canon and Nikon lost a measurable amount of market share to Sony and still have. Sony was incredibly aggressive here when they bought Minolta’s imaging division. EOS adaptors were free with every camera purchase for years. The only real impediment was financial. Sony pioneered EFCS early, although the tech existed in DSLR’s as well, in live view, and it took nearly half a decade for other manufacturers to adopt it fully. Mind you Canon took that long to be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century. By then the potential issues had been identified and solved. A lot of the *big* guys were tied contractually as ambassadors to Canikon but those slowly dissolved as they were left behind. We shot our first hybrid wedding in 2014. We marketed hard and were good enough at it I could retire at 50.

I’m not dismissing the experiences of other wedding photographers. The simple reality is that they’re not playing with lenses where shutter shock is a huge issue or they don’t know how to see it. A 50mm @1.2 or even 85 @ 1.2 isn’t going to have huge issues with shutter shock. But the fact Canon and Sony don’t have a hybrid EFCS solution will. Also, on  the SL3, as I have already said, it’s mostly from around 150mm. So we’re at 2.8 when shooting weddings and long lenses and barely into the danger zone focal length wise. I’m not surprised they don’t see shutter shock, or enough to recognise it as an issue. When the longest Leica lens was 280mm @f4 it didn’t matter much. 

It sure doesn’t help that Canon and Sony stubbornly refuse to implement a cutoff to their EFCS, like Nikon and Fuji do. Nikon automatically reverts to the mechanical shutter at 1/1000 and Fuji 1/1500. EFCS is the default for Canon, Nikon and Fuji camera out of the box btw. Why would the manufacturers all, except Leica have it as an option if they didn’t think it useful for some photographers?

And as far as I’m concerned when you drop the *straw man* comment it just means you’re devoid of logical argument. An upmarket way of saying *well, your mum’s fat* because you have nothing left to offer to the conversation. You have presented opinion and the *experiences of others* because you have none. But no actual facts. No actual example of where it affect your shooting or how it’s addition to the SL line would hurt your process. Feel free to stick your head in the sand, or wherever else you feel appropriate. But I’m done.

https://photographylife.com/mechanical-electronic-shutter-efcs

https://www.canon-europe.com/pro/infobank/electronic-vs-mechanical-shutter/

http://camera-wiki.org/wiki/EFCS

Gordon

 

 

[BernardC]

6 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

And as far as I’m concerned when you drop the *straw man* comment it just means you’re devoid of logical argument.

Oh please, it's a common term. Look it up. If you go back and have a look at where I use the term "straw man" it is be obvious what was meant. In that specific case, you claimed that I believe everything I read on the internet, while simultaneously being irate that I don't believe everything you wrote. Shame on me for doing some very basic due diligence...

The original a7 was a flop among high-end wedding shooters, but I did see it as a second camera for video shooters. They complained about poor battery life, and they had to use EOS lenses because the native stuff wasn't good. One local pro had a zoom split in half in his hands! Usually the a7 came-out for the bokeh/Martha Stewart shots, but most of the video coverage was done with more appropriate gear from Canon and Sony's professional divisions.

I don't know what was happening at the other end of the market, as I didn't work those gigs. If you say the a7 was popular, it probably was. All I remember is seeing lots of 7Ds and Nikons (I'm not knowledgeable to tell them apart, but the D850 was popular with successful shooters). That's just from a quick glance at the local landmarks on a Saturday afternoon, so it's anecdotal. I only worked on bigger shows.

HD, SR, please re-read instead of asking people to repeat. It's still there, you don't have to constantly ask "can you repeat that?" If you find anything specific that you disagree with, make your case. Most of what I read from you is general unease with the notion that EFCS might not be a cure-all. Don't get me wrong, good for you if you feel that way, but it's a little lacking in substance.

[jaapv]

Nothing except Dr. Wonderman’s Snake Oil Tincture is a cure-all. 

[lecycliste]

On 12/14/2024 at 4:59 PM, hdmesa said:

Also heads up that if you're shooting at infinity (landscapes for example), the Leica and Panasonic cameras don't always correct lock onto perfect infinity focus at 300mm and longer. AF area selection doesn't matter – it's hit or miss whether on crosshair, small/medium/large focus box, or wide area. Always zoom in and focus on infinity manually.

Kinda hard to focus manually on flying birds. I’ll stick with AF and high shutter speeds. 

[jaapv]

10 minutes ago, lecycliste said:

Kinda hard to focus manually on flying birds. I’ll stick with AF and high shutter speeds. 

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Hmm.. Leica M8, Tele-Elmar 135 (AKA200). 

 

M240, 105-280 R

[SrMi]

33 minutes ago, lecycliste said:

Kinda hard to focus manually on flying birds. I’ll stick with AF and high shutter speeds. 

Flying birds rarely fly at infinity, and when they do, you may want to remove them from the image :).

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Flying birds rarely fly at infinity, and when they do, you may want to remove them from the image :).

😂 yeah, my advice to focus manually at infinity was strictly for landscapes at distances measured in miles/kilometers 

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