Lumix 70-300 on SL3 (shutter shock issues).

[SrMi]

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Heads up.

Lumix 70-300 produces sharp images with SL3 if you use the electronic shutter. With a mechanical shutter, the shutter shock will create slightly blurred details (shutter shock).

[jaapv]

Thanks for the heads-up. Nothing new there however. The long Sigma zooms and 560 carry similar caveats.

[SrMi]

23 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Thanks for the heads-up. Nothing new there however. The long Sigma zooms and 560 carry similar caveats.

There is nothing new, indeed, but it is a reminder as I doubted the lens before realizing that the image degraded because of the shutter shock.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

This is typical of all lenses longer than about 120mm on the SL3. I’m not seeing it up to 90mm though.

The main affected range appears to be between 1/50th and 1/f, although this can vary slightly between lenses.

The SL3 just needs EFCS and this would not be an issue.

Gordon

[hdmesa]

Also heads up that if you're shooting at infinity (landscapes for example), the Leica and Panasonic cameras don't always correct lock onto perfect infinity focus at 300mm and longer. AF area selection doesn't matter – it's hit or miss whether on crosshair, small/medium/large focus box, or wide area. Always zoom in and focus on infinity manually.

[michali]

9 hours ago, jaapv said:

Thanks for the heads-up. Nothing new there however. The long Sigma zooms and 560 carry similar caveats.

9 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

This is typical of all lenses longer than about 120mm on the SL3. I’m not seeing it up to 90mm though.

The main affected range appears to be between 1/50th and 1/f, although this can vary slightly between lenses.

The SL3 just needs EFCS and this would not be an issue.

Gordon

This is typical throughout the SL range. Shutter shock seems to be an issue with a number of mirrorless cameras and not only limited to Leica.

I first encountered this over 10 years ago with a Sony A7R as well as the Lumix S1R for the short period I owned these cameras. I've also had the same issues with the Leica VE90-280mm mounted on my SL2 & SL3. I agree with Gordon it becomes apparent with lenses from 120mm upwards.

My standard setting with all long lenses is the electronic shutter, no more issues. 

[jaapv]

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It can be annoying for things with fast movement like the wings of a bird flying, though. In that case one might be tempted to use mechanical shutter and a program that can sharpen motion blur like Focus Magic or Topaz Photo AI/ Sharpen AI. 

[SrMi]

9 hours ago, michali said:

This is typical throughout the SL range. Shutter shock seems to be an issue with a number of mirrorless cameras and not only limited to Leica.

This problem is solved for other manufacturers by using EFCS instead of the mechanical shutter. Some have removed the option to use mechanical shutter completely and allow only EFCS or electronic shutter.

[tom0511]

I didnt know that but sounds disappointing for the SL3. However I didn't realize myself so far. What shutter times are critical?

 

[hdmesa]

35 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

I didnt know that but sounds disappointing for the SL3. However I didn't realize myself so far. What shutter times are critical?

 

I don't know exactly, but by the time you get to 300mm, it's any shutter speed. Always use electronic for very long lenses.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, tom0511 said:

I didnt know that but sounds disappointing for the SL3. However I didn't realize myself so far. What shutter times are critical?

 

I see shutter shock only at shutter speeds below 1/250 sec. Nikon Z cameras picked 1/320 sec to switch automatically from EFCS to mechanical. Some observe 1/1000 to 1/2000 as the threshold at which shutter shock is not observable.

[hdmesa]

31 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I see shutter shock only at shutter speeds below 1/250 sec. Nikon Z cameras picked 1/320 sec to switch automatically from EFCS to mechanical. Some observe 1/1000 to 1/2000 as the threshold at which shutter shock is not observable.

The switch to mechanical at higher shutter speeds is to protect bokeh rendering at very wide apertures. Shutter shock happened for me with the Sigma 60-600 at higher shutter speeds when I was at 400-600mm.

[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

The switch to mechanical at higher shutter speeds is to protect bokeh rendering at very wide apertures. Shutter shock happened for me with the Sigma 60-600 at higher shutter speeds when I was at 400-600mm.

Yes, that is the reason why the auto switch mode exists. It is telling that Nikon thinks that there is no shutter shock above 1/250. Some people disagree and think the switch should be higher.

Safest is to test yourself. I will keep the camera in electronic shutter mode unless I have strong movements or feel nostalgic and want to hear the mechanical clanks 🤣.

 

 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

It can be annoying for things with fast movement like the wings of a bird flying, though. In that case one might be tempted to use mechanical shutter and a program that can sharpen motion blur like Focus Magic or Topaz Photo AI/ Sharpen AI. 

You’d be at higher speeds anyway. Shutter shock is generally gone at 1/f on the SL3 so you’d be shooting in the safe range anyway.

Every other manufacturer have a EFCS now except Leica who doesn’t even bother. Some, like Fuji have it float, so it auto cuts back to full mechanical at 1/2000th.

Shutter shock is a real issue with SL bodies and now there are multiple good long lenses it needs to be addressed.

Gordon

[jaapv]

But it isn't. There is no safe range.  My theory is that the shutter generates vibrations at a high frequency that OIS cannot handle, nor a high shutter speed.

[SrMi]

41 minutes ago, jaapv said:

But it isn't. There is no safe range.  My theory is that the shutter generates vibrations at a high frequency that OIS cannot handle, nor a high shutter speed.

I guess it depends on the lens/camera combination.

[hdmesa]

11 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I guess it depends on the lens/camera combination.

It's bad enough that if you want guaranteed sharpness, don't use the mechanical shutter unless you need to avoid rolling shutter.

[helged]

3 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I guess it depends on the lens/camera combination.

My feeling as well.

Speculations; I havn't had time, energy or sufficient interest to systematically test this, but it is doable & I have run some quick tests...:

Each physical system - a bridge, a ship, an airplane, a lake, a glass of water, you name it... - is characterised by specific natural oscillation modes (or eigenmodes). In the case of a bridge - to take a classical example (see eg the collapse of the Tacoma bridge, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacoma_Narrows_Bridge_(1940)😞 If an external force like wind, or in this case the wake turbulence generated by the wind, acts on the the bridge, with a frequency closely matching the natural oscillation frequency of the bridge, energy will be transferred from the wind/wind turbulence to the bridge, leading to larger and larger oscillations. If continued, the bridge may collapse.

Transferred to a camera+lens-system, this system's natural oscillation frequency will depend on the weight and size of the system, its centre of gravity, how the system is fixed, etc. In this case the mirror or shutter acts as the 'external' force acting on the body+lens system. It is when the mirror/shutter vibration is close to the natural oscillation mode of the camera+body system that the latter will most strongly vibrate, leading to blurred images. Clearly, IBIS or optical stabilisation mechanisms will also come into play. 

I have run some quick experiments in order to identify particularly critical combinations of camera + lens + shutter speed + degree of camera-lens fixation points (hand-held various ways; body on tripod; body on one tripod, lens on another tripod; tripod plus soft/hard hand-held stabilisation, etc.). With Leica S006/S3 and eg S180mm (or R280mm), shutter speeds between 1/30-1/250 s are most prone to show vibration (with the mirror in the fixed-up position, so 'only' the shutter curtains are moving). Somewhat similar results with the SL-line of bodies using the mechanical shutter.

As strongly advocated by eg @FlashGordonPhotography - and also communicated to Leica representatives by Gordon (and others) - only EFCS can eliminate the vibration issue and still avoid annoing rolling-shutter effects: https://photographylife.com/mechanical-electronic-shutter-efcs#what-is-electronic-front-curtain-shutter. Yes, let's hope that an EFCS-option becomes available for SL2x, SL3(x); the sooner the better...

[FlashGordonPhotography]

22 hours ago, jaapv said:

But it isn't. There is no safe range.  My theory is that the shutter generates vibrations at a high frequency that OIS cannot handle, nor a high shutter speed.

Your theory is correct. However the frequency also changes as the shutter speed changes so usually there is a range. I have found the SL2 series slightly worse than the SL3. By 1/f on the SL3 shutter shock is usually not visible. Below 1/40th you really don’t see it either. It’s also somewhat lens dependant. My Leica 100-400 is *slightly* different to my Sigma 100-400. I haven’t tested the SL601 and the S5II has efcs.

I spent nearly a week testing this a while back.

Gordon

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 12/16/2024 at 6:13 AM, SrMi said:

Yes, that is the reason why the auto switch mode exists. It is telling that Nikon thinks that there is no shutter shock above 1/250. Some people disagree and think the switch should be higher.

Safest is to test yourself. I will keep the camera in electronic shutter mode unless I have strong movements or feel nostalgic and want to hear the mechanical clanks 🤣.

 

 

Fuji is 1/200th, I believe.

Gordon