charlesphoto99 Posted December 12, 2024 Share #221 Posted December 12, 2024 Advertisement (gone after registration) 16 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said: This is different, to what I said, but if you feel better twisting other's statements, I don't want to spoil your fun. Hmm, pretty much what you said, get a Sony if you want to use this $10k lens properly, so no fun spoiled here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 12, 2024 Posted December 12, 2024 Hi charlesphoto99, Take a look here Why I love and hate the Leica M. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pippy Posted December 12, 2024 Share #222 Posted December 12, 2024 1 hour ago, Altair said: ...What i don't like:......Less than ideal successful shot percentage, though this has improved drastically... And it will continue to do so. As Paul / LocalHero mentions back in post #213 all it takes is more practice until it becomes second-nature and you won't even need to think about what you are doing. Best of good fortune with it! Philip. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 12, 2024 Share #223 Posted December 12, 2024 Perhaps its worth stepping back for a moment and actually analysing exactly what it is that is problematic with focussing extremely fast lenses. FWIW and this is just my experience, no camera system actually enables fast and absolutely precise focus with very fast lenses. dSLR - the point of focus show in the viewfinder is often too large relative to the specific point at which focus is required (AF or MF). Which means using live view which is effectively using the camera as an EVF camera. EVF cameras allow zooming in onto the area which needs to be focussed on and this works very well in MF but slows the action of focussing down considerably. dRF cameras have independant focus via viewfinder, but which is at the edge of the operating parameters of the camera. Absolute focus using a dRF camera depends on eyesight, subject matter, and lighting conditions more than the other types of camera. The conclusion I have drawn is that achieving precise focus with very fast lenses is never going to be easy and in order to be precise will be slow relative to working with slower lenses. AF in my experience is not guaranteed to be as precise as might be desired. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tseg Posted December 12, 2024 Share #224 Posted December 12, 2024 I hate that with every firmware update there are less and less things to complain about... now I can't even complain I can't format my M11-D through the app or that there is not proper back-button focus lock on my Q3 43. At least we can still reminisce about how it used to be, "I remember when I had to format my M11-D from my computer. Yeh, those were the days...". 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted December 12, 2024 Share #225 Posted December 12, 2024 3 minutes ago, pgk said: The conclusion I have drawn is that achieving precise focus with very fast lenses is never going to be easy and in order to be precise will be slow relative to working with slower lenses. AF in my experience is not guaranteed to be as precise as might be desired. 100%! I think it's one of the reasons one so often sees with these types of fast lenses, with EVF or RF, images of a static subject, with the head/etc in the exact middle of the frame, and little regard to the overall composition beyond the swirly bokeh of an f1 lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 12, 2024 Share #226 Posted December 12, 2024 Focusing can be fast and precise with auto zoom when using it together with focus peaking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
3D-Kraft.com Posted December 12, 2024 Share #227 Posted December 12, 2024 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) vor einer Stunde schrieb charlesphoto99: Hmm, pretty much what you said, get a Sony if you want to use this $10k lens properly, so no fun spoiled here. I did not say, that a Noctilux can only be used on a Sony. The question was about options to improve hit rate without losing the compactness of the system when using a lens like the Noctilux. There seems to be at least agreement that an EVF helps. In the Leica world, this means either attaching the bulky Visoflex or using an even bulkier SL. Anyone who wants to surrender to brand purity has no other option. However, I don't see that in the thread opener (yet). vor einer Stunde schrieb pgk: FWIW and this is just my experience, no camera system actually enables fast and absolutely precise focus with very fast lenses. If you mean lenses wider than f/1.2, you are almost right. On Nikon Z-Mount and Sony E-Mount, you have the option to use autofocus adapters and whoever does not consider this blasphemy, you can focus and shoot with one tip on the desired point on the display or (inside EVF) move the desired focus point quickly with a joystick-like button. Also the eye-autofocus is avaiable (the most helpful tool when shooting people, if you are open to accept that kind of assistance). So there are options even with bodies more compact than the M11 (except Nikon). The Noctilux 50/1.0 can be used like this pretty easy, the results with a CV Nokton 50/1.0 were less good, but still a viable option. vor 1 Stunde schrieb charlesphoto99: Embrace the mystery of not knowing exactly what the image is going to look like. Yes, this is a good characterization of shooting with an M, but if you remember: The thread opener plans a project that - in my opinion - will have situations, where you may have only one chance for a good shot. Edited December 12, 2024 by 3D-Kraft.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 12, 2024 Share #228 Posted December 12, 2024 (edited) 14 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said: If you mean lenses wider than f/1.2, you are almost right. The base problem with lenses which have a razor thin depth of field is defining exactly where they need to be focussed. This is difficult unless some sort of magnification is used simply because using the full image (dSLR, EVF or dRF) does not give sufficiently detailed precision of where the exact point of focus actually is. Consequently the focus may be correct or may be marginally off. It is not guaranteed. To define the precise oint of focus requires to magnify the image at the desired point of focus and then focus and this takes time. I have owene the f/1 Noctilux and Canon 50/1.2 and 85/1.2 lenses and my expereince is that none will completely reliably give as well focussed images as is desired, all the time. Conditions and subject matter influence the ability to achieve appropriate focus of course. FWIW I am happy with the f/1.4 lenses I own and the difference in having faster lenses is offset by their focus requirements as far as I am concerned. Edited December 12, 2024 by pgk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
3D-Kraft.com Posted December 12, 2024 Share #229 Posted December 12, 2024 @pgk: That's why I mentioned the eye-AF. If you are shooting people and not only still lifes, that's usually what you want to focus on and in that situation, you do not need to zoom into magnification and move the window. With many modern cameras, almost every portrait shot is nailed. This is, what makes them so boring (and prompted me to buy another M9). 😉 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altair Posted December 12, 2024 Author Share #230 Posted December 12, 2024 1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said: So glad you're getting with it. The most important thing with M's is the mind set. Embrace the mystery of not knowing exactly what the image is going to look like. That said, I'm confused with your statements above. I guess you mean that unlike an EVF, the rangefinder window doesn't show you what the final exposure will be. But this was true with optical SLR's as well, so really it's about learning exposure, and keeping that mini-calculator going on in your head at all times, and not necessarily about a limitation of the M. And the first about framing. That will become faster and faster as you master focus. I remember decades ago after getting my first roll back from my newly acquired M6. The optics all seemed 'off.' It took me a second, but then I realized that I was so focused on focusing, I was forgetting to recompose. it's all about a lot of small movements. I was always amazed at watching my young son use his X-Box controller, that I was absolutely useless at. Then I realized that shooting an M is very much like that. Hello Interesting statement and advice. Embrace not knowing what the image will look like. That actually has been the case in a pleasant way as I saw the results of the wide open Leica glass, but could also apply to other less desirable aspects. Maybe that's part of being an M photographer. Interesting statement and something to think about it. Someone should write down a definitive guide on what it means to be an M photographer and what to expect and aim for. Regarding framing, I meant with an M I focus my mental energy on nailing focus, that's what's on my mind most and first with an M11. With my other cameras that is not something I worry about, my mind is focused on composition and framing. The fact is modern cameras allow you to focus on the subject and the frame, a Leica M11 demands focusing on focusing...yes it should be second nature with time but always a factor....this negative is of course countered by the magic of Leica glass and their unique color science...all of which are imperfect in a gorgeous way....perhaps it's meant that the framing should also be imperfect 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altair Posted December 12, 2024 Author Share #231 Posted December 12, 2024 10 minutes ago, pgk said: The base problem with lenses which have a razor thin depth of field is defining exactly where they need to be focussed. This is difficult unless some sort of magnification is used simply because using the full image (dSLR, EVF or dRF) does not give sufficiently detailed precision of where the exact point of focus actually is. Consequently the focus may be correct or may be marginally off. It is not guaranteed. To define the precise oint of focus requires to magnify the image at the desired point of focus and then focus and this takes time. I have owene the f/1 Noctilux and Canon 50/1.2 and 85/1.2 lenses and my expereince is that none will completely reliably give as well focussed images as is desired, all the time. Conditions and subject matter influence the ability to achieve appropriate focus of course. FWIW I am happy with the f/1.4 lenses I own and the difference in having faster lenses is offset by their focus requirements as far as I am concerned. That is true to a large degree, my 0.95 Noctilux is now my still life lens. Don't use it for anything else the 35 APO at f2 is super easy to focus in comparison Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
3D-Kraft.com Posted December 12, 2024 Share #232 Posted December 12, 2024 (edited) vor 36 Minuten schrieb Altair: That is true to a large degree, my 0.95 Noctilux is now my still life lens. Don't use it for anything else That's sad, because for most of the "still lifes" I have shot in the past, this extreme shallow depth of field was neither required nor desired. For me, the option for strong subject separation and blurring the (often not so attractive) background is desired when shooting people. That's why I spend a lot of money for Leica lenses (including their imperfections) but prefer using them on cameras with less limitations and more reliability. Edited December 12, 2024 by 3D-Kraft.com Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted December 12, 2024 Share #233 Posted December 12, 2024 1 hour ago, 3D-Kraft.com said: The thread opener plans a project that - in my opinion - will have situations, where you may have only one chance for a good shot. And if the AF goes wrong for that one shot? Or you're too busy fiddling with focus points, EVF focus aids, etc etc and miss the shot? Here's a shot I took with an M9 and 18mm lens. I was shooting the singer with a Monochrome and longer lens, saw the guitar player was about to jump, in a split second grabbed the M9 that was laying at my side and pointed it upwards from floor/stage height. No time to adjust. One and done. His only jump of the show at that. Of course that's easier to do with an 18, but what if I had had a 50 on it instead at that moment (I swap lenses a lot)? Getting that 'one shot' has almost everything to do with the learned or skilled 'luck' of the photographer than anything else. And being in the right place at the right time. No amount of techno whiz bang gear can overcome that. Why even bother with M's at all if it's not considered reliable to get the shot? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 8 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/417653-why-i-love-and-hate-the-leica-m/?do=findComment&comment=5721945'>More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted December 12, 2024 Share #234 Posted December 12, 2024 1 hour ago, lct said: Focusing can be fast and precise with auto zoom when using it together with focus peaking. And entirely defeating the raison d'être of the M, which is the ability to focus and see the entire (and outside) the frame while simultaneously firing the shutter. If you're zoomed in, and at that second something moves into the frame that would make for the best photo, you wouldn't know it because you are tunnel visited into the focus spot (or blinded by wiggly lines everywhere). It's similar to the idea of cropping. When shooting and thinking 'I'll just crop later,' one should also ask, 'if Im taking things out later, what am I not adding in now?' 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen.s1 Posted December 12, 2024 Share #235 Posted December 12, 2024 14 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said: And entirely defeating the raison d'être of the M, which is the ability to focus and see the entire (and outside) the frame while simultaneously firing the shutter. If you're zoomed in, and at that second something moves into the frame that would make for the best photo, you wouldn't know it because you are tunnel visited into the focus spot (or blinded by wiggly lines everywhere). Turn "Focus Aid" to manual. Voila! Full screen Whilst focusing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted December 12, 2024 Share #236 Posted December 12, 2024 1 hour ago, Altair said: I meant with an M I focus my mental energy on nailing focus, that's what's on my mind most and first with an M11. Really? I haven't had that problem for decades - on an M focussing is wholly instinctive in my case. Point the camera, focus is there by muscle memory, recompose and shoot. And yes, I automatically pull slightly back whilst recomposing... AF costs far more mental energy - find the focus point, half-press, check with magnification, lock, check composition and then shoot if the moment is still there... 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted December 12, 2024 Share #237 Posted December 12, 2024 @Altair, you’ve had great advice from @LocalHero1953, @pippy, @pgk and others. You can use your Noctilux with your X2D and an adapter (I have from time to time, but I don’t like the electronic shutter) - some here have posted some lovely images with that arrangement, albeit cropped. The Elmarit-R 180/2.8 doesn’t need any cropping on the X2D, but I digress. Part of your journey is to get your head around what your M11 is good for, and where other cameras shine. I’ve used my M9 for birds in flight in the past, and got interestng results; but wouldn’t waste the energy again, I don’t think. Rather than worrying about what the M11 isn’t, perhaps spend the time really understanding what it is? As for focusing, the difficulties with getting a sharp image with the Noctilux wide open are understandable, but over stated. Yes, it has a thin depth of field when wide open, but it is also quite soft at f/0.95 to f/2. You’re not going to get fast moving objects reliably in focus with that lens wide open, save with considerable luck (eg, anticipating where your subject will be and pre-focusing). The benefit of the rangefinder is that it will always be in focus at the centre of your image regardless of the lens you mount. No other camera system does this so well. The patch focus is simply accurate with every lens. You can try with an EVF, but with wide angle lenses, focus peaking and magnification won’t help you. But then, with telephoto lenses, the framing is so small, ensuring accurate focus without magnification is difficult - hence Leica recommending using an EVF with the 75 Noctilux and the 90 Summillux. The 50 Noctilux is somewhat in the middle - I use a 1.4x screw-in magnifier for my Noctilux a lot with my aging eyes. A Visoflex can be useful, if you want to get the EVF benefits, but you will tire of it for. Many of the reasons above. My advice, if you ever ask for it, will be spend time with your M11 and your Noctilux - it’s a lovely lens; but also come to understand what it isn’t good at. One thing I would add is to think about placing your subject away from the centre of the image - this can be difficult with the rangefinder as the subject will move inside the plane of best focus as you rotate the camera. You can deal with this by focusing on something else at the same plane, rocking your head slightly back to get the subject back into that plane, selecting a slightly higher aperture or using a Visoflex. I can bet good money that an EVF won’t be faster than the rangefinder, once you have the hang of it. I also bet you won’t sell your X2D. Your Z9, I’m not so sure about - don’t get lured into other systems; at least for the moment! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted December 12, 2024 Share #238 Posted December 12, 2024 53 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said: And entirely defeating the raison d'être of the M, which is the ability to focus and see the entire (and outside) the frame while simultaneously firing the shutter... Been doing this for half a century but the M is what it is now, not what it used to be when i bought my first M4 in 1971. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
username Posted December 12, 2024 Share #239 Posted December 12, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said: And if the AF goes wrong for that one shot? Or you're too busy fiddling with focus points, EVF focus aids, etc etc and miss the shot? I think it works quite well, seriously. What gear do you think people are using who shoot the world cup for example? Even a decade ago, before AI / eye-AF etc. this worked incredibly well. And what you did there with the jumping shot (great photo by the way!) is not really a focus problem no matter what gear one is using, I mean with a 18mm - c'mon.. you can have your camera on manual focus roughly pre-set (if you really distrust your AF or think it wouldn't be fast enough), and your shot will be perfectly sharp where you need it to be anyway. Edited December 12, 2024 by username Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted December 12, 2024 Share #240 Posted December 12, 2024 14 minutes ago, lct said: Been doing this for half a century but the M is what it is now, not what it used to be when i bought my first M4 in 1971. Yes, but the fundamentals of how an M works in the way that it does, and makes it unique and special, are essentially unchanged. The basics can get overlooked. Case in point: My fifteen year old son got a used a6400 with a couple of used kit lenses and a 35 prime last year as a gift (he's getting a used 16mm 1.4 Sigma this Xmas, as the $59 kit zoom went bust in Hawaii). I went over few basics, told him that for the Sony menu YouTube is probably best, and gave him my spare copy of Lightroom to play with. He honestly hasn't used it that much, but recently showed some renewed interest. Yesterday he was taking snapshot of his new skis, but in landscape orientation. I was like, maybe better to get them all in if you turn it vertically. He admitted that he did not know you could do that, laughed, and thanked me. I left it at that. Guess I skipped a few true basics and went straight to the point, click, download, phase of things, with a bit of this lens is wide, this one long thrown in. But fifteen year olds don't want their Dad telling them anything (until they actually need them to). 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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