Goodbye, M11!

[costa43]

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Just now, hdmesa said:

I don't think we have confirmation either way about the M11 Glossy Black's battery cover metal type do we? Who will be the first to test that for us? 🫣

My bad if not, I trusted in the comments from other members on the dedicated thread on that point, a dangerous game 😆 

I do think that cameras with a baseplate will brass nicer though. Somehow, modern and brassing do not go as well together in my mind. 

[emlokto]

These forums are wild and eye-opening. Nov 1st, lightly mocking posters on forums other than m11 for lulling themselves into not needing an upgrade. In the same month, "that's it, I'm out of the M11 system. Going back to basics." 

I have to say, the Leica community is absolutely fascinating. I don't know if I belong (besides owning Leicas) but fascinating! 

[bubbachua]

my first M camera was the M10-D, took some memorable photos with it while on a trip in Europe and two which ended in LFI selections.love the camera, especially the ergonomics, in fact I’d say its the best feeling camera made because of the thumb lever providing such good grip. but ultimately i was frustrated with the poor firmware at that time, shitty syncing with FOTOS app, waste of time going through the app for stuffs and being dependent on my phone for it

when the M11 came out with the upgraded sensor, i took to it right away. More megapixels, more crop ability for me. I also preferred the new battery system, can’t say i missed the base plate much. But i did prefer brass, so i got a silver M11. Apart from some freezes once awhile initially (I’d say for the past few months I’ve not encountered any freezes since the recent firmware updates), its been a real workhorse for me.

but, i still miss that no screen discipline feel every once awhile… its not to say I don’t like the screen, i love it, and i even use a visoflex 2 for critical focusing wide open.. but just wanted to go back to basics a bit and feel the real photography..

so i got a new M6

no screen, brass, doesn’t freeze up, perfect ergonomics

so I’d say if you’re selling your M11s, get an M6. But do keep one digital M around. I’d keep the M11P if i were you, i don’t rate the M11-D at all. To me i see the M11-D as just a low cost M11-P that has allowed leica to overprice and fatten its margins with lower manufacturing cost. Can’t understand the no-screen hype for a digital camera. The screen is there for a purpose in digital, if you need discipline then switch it off when you’re shooting. Go back to basics, use zone focusing, test out distances and focus in range and trust your distance estimates and enjoy shooting with the camera

[Smudgerer]

On 11/26/2024 at 9:04 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

I don't claim to align the VF and external world with two roving eyes - I just meant that I use the left eye when I occasionally want to see what might come into the frame.

Actually this is something I used to do a lot when using a cinema camera, the left eye sort of kept lookout for what might be coming into frame, ( primarily on left side of frame of course ), it was more useful when using a digital cinema VF that basically gives you the whole frame, all the lens sees sometimes with little or no bleed so you can't tell through the VF what may be coming into the picture...........not so much with film cameras as the ones I used the most, Aaton / Arri / Panavision were rather like the M's VF where you can see beyond the frame lines, ( in cinema / film those frame-lines would be the aspect ratio being shot ).

[Smudgerer]

6 minutes ago, bubbachua said:

so I’d say if you’re selling your M11s, get an M6. But do keep one digital M around. I’d keep the M11P if i were you, i don’t rate the M11-D at all. To me i see the M11-D as just a low cost M11-P that has allowed leica to overprice and fatten its margins with lower manufacturing cost. Can’t understand the no-screen hype for a digital camera. The screen is there for a purpose in digital, if you need discipline then switch it off when you’re shooting. Go back to basics, use zone focusing, test out distances and focus in range and trust your distance estimates and enjoy shooting with the camera

Well each to his own I guess. I do agree with you over the M10-D, I owned one for a long time and it did become my favourite digital M, the downsides for me was it's unreliability and flaky firmware, Photos too which I hated then and still do now, but maybe I just bought a "lemon" with that camera. When the M11-D became available as sure as hell I didn't expect to like the thing even though I am firmly in the "no LCD" users club, but then I did like it and bought it, no regrets at all. Nothing's perfect of course but when traveling  or just wandering around it pairs well with a M2, M6 or M7 and that combo works very well for me. Now the M11-D is set-up as I want it I rarely use Photo's at all which is how it should be with a D.

[hdmesa]

41 minutes ago, bubbachua said:

...i see the M11-D as just a low cost M11-P that has allowed leica to overprice and fatten its margins with lower manufacturing cost...

The rear screen hardware has got to cost Leica what, $75 per unit in bulk? But you know what is expensive? How about all this together:

• Producing a new top plate
• Producing a new backplate
• Producing a new metal ISO dial
• Engineering the ISO dial re-wiring
• New firmware additions, which include completely different function button usage and display of data in the rangefinder
• Firmware removals (including re-coding existing functions that had dependencies on the removed portions)
• Adding the functionality to FOTOS necessary to run the camera
• New M11-D user guide
• Staff training for assembly line
• Management oversight of the project

Yeah, sure, Leica is getting super fat off all the profit from this limited release camera 🫠 More like they're doing this to keep the image of the brand fresh as the M11 ages into its third year.

41 minutes ago, bubbachua said:

... Can’t understand the no-screen hype for a digital camera..

Yet you chose the M10-D as your first Leica M, and you "loved" it? Several of your complaints about it were largely resolved with the M11-D, including more firmware options and faster and more reliable FOTOS integration.

[bubbachua]

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To each his own is a good way to call the discussion.

i loved the M10D’s ergonomics, not the lack of screen. In my use i have realized a need for a screen and also got a visoflex for my M11 when i bought faster lenses. Certain types of photography on the street makes the screen useful in framing at certain angles. That’s my viewpoint on screens and digital. If you don’t want a screen switch it off? How difficult is that.

now, if they had kept the lever for M11D and maybe ISO dial as well, I’d love it too. But they took away the things i liked about its predecessor and further simplified the product, hence my view that its a reduction of costs and charging a premium over the M11/P.

your points there are well noted, but then again they could also cost next to nothing incrementally from a fixed cost perspective in a production line.

technology firmware updates and integration are part and parcel for every new product release, it would have cost the same for any M11D or future M11P version or m12. Staff training… really? lol… 

[Smudgerer]

25 minutes ago, bubbachua said:

To each his own is a good way to call the discussion.

i loved the M10D’s ergonomics, not the lack of screen. In my use i have realized a need for a screen and also got a visoflex for my M11 when i bought faster lenses. Certain types of photography on the street makes the screen useful in framing at certain angles. That’s my viewpoint on screens and digital. If you don’t want a screen switch it off? How difficult is that.

now, if they had kept the lever for M11D and maybe ISO dial as well, I’d love it too. But they took away the things i liked about its predecessor and further simplified the product, hence my view that its a reduction of costs and charging a premium over the M11/P.

your points there are well noted, but then again they could also cost next to nothing incrementally from a fixed cost perspective in a production line.

technology firmware updates and integration are part and parcel for every new product release, it would have cost the same for any M11D or future M11P version or m12. Staff training… really? lol… 

So you don't like or don't feel that the M11-D is for you, fair enough.

Note what hdmesa said above, all valid points that to my mind knocking your opinions on the camera out of the window, but then I am perhaps biased because as I said I didn't expect to like the camera but within a day or so to my genuine surprise it was and is a confirmed keeper for me, and I've used M's personally and professionally since my first M2 around 1967, so I am kinda familiar with them.

I also well understand there are plenty of others that wouldn't go for a camera without a LCD, so what? Fine, what works for me I am well aware is something that maybe is unlikely to work for others but I do try not to put down other's choices, why should I? Photography is such an individualistic pursuit and that encompasses images produced as well as the tools used to make them and I consider myself lucky when I am happy with a tool despite others not being so, so much. There's a lot of braying on a website like this, one should come to it with all your filters turned on, and your sense of humour at 11.

Edited November 27, 2024 by Smudgerer

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, bubbachua said:

...technology firmware updates and integration are part and parcel for every new product release, it would have cost the same for any M11D or future M11P version or m12. Staff training… really? lol… 

The D models are typically a smaller number of units, so specialized costs associated with its production are higher on a per unit basis.

[bubbachua]

All good. My comments and intentions originate to dissuade the original post’s contents of leaving the M11 family because of his poor experience with M11D to not deter him from losing faith in the line of M11 cameras.

also, I am not putting down others choices just merely stating my own decision process and perspective/opinion. 👍

Edited November 27, 2024 by bubbachua

[setuporg]

On 11/24/2024 at 8:38 AM, fenykepesz said:

just grab, i suggest, your pics earlier from your camera this time...

Film shot and rewound!  Although that particular camera has a quirk, rewind handle can be turned either way and the right way is unnatural.  Anyhow child’s play compared to digital.

For now I’m thoroughly enjoying the Edition 60+M246 trip.  The batteries last forever.  The B&W movies are so much fun I’m tempted to get a mint M240 for color ones.

Meanwhile this thread went into bronzing of the baseplates!  I’ll be checking in to see if it mentions Moana!

[hdmesa]

41 minutes ago, setuporg said:

...Meanwhile this thread went into bronzing of the baseplates!...

New phrase:

That really bronzes my baseplate.

[JimmyCheng]

12 hours ago, bubbachua said:

my first M camera was the M10-D, took some memorable photos with it while on a trip in Europe and two which ended in LFI selections.love the camera, especially the ergonomics, in fact I’d say its the best feeling camera made because of the thumb lever providing such good grip. but ultimately i was frustrated with the poor firmware at that time, shitty syncing with FOTOS app, waste of time going through the app for stuffs and being dependent on my phone for it

when the M11 came out with the upgraded sensor, i took to it right away. More megapixels, more crop ability for me. I also preferred the new battery system, can’t say i missed the base plate much. But i did prefer brass, so i got a silver M11. Apart from some freezes once awhile initially (I’d say for the past few months I’ve not encountered any freezes since the recent firmware updates), its been a real workhorse for me.

but, i still miss that no screen discipline feel every once awhile… its not to say I don’t like the screen, i love it, and i even use a visoflex 2 for critical focusing wide open.. but just wanted to go back to basics a bit and feel the real photography..

so i got a new M6

no screen, brass, doesn’t freeze up, perfect ergonomics

so I’d say if you’re selling your M11s, get an M6. But do keep one digital M around. I’d keep the M11P if i were you, i don’t rate the M11-D at all. To me i see the M11-D as just a low cost M11-P that has allowed leica to overprice and fatten its margins with lower manufacturing cost. Can’t understand the no-screen hype for a digital camera. The screen is there for a purpose in digital, if you need discipline then switch it off when you’re shooting. Go back to basics, use zone focusing, test out distances and focus in range and trust your distance estimates and enjoy shooting with the camera

It doesn't actually work that way if I am being honest. Here is my personal experience using every gen of M, and I think some might agree with me. 
1. When I was using my M9, because of the lack of liveview and shitty screen resolution, I shoot with rangefinder or zone focus 100% of the time.
2. When I got the M10 gen, even though the liveview is more usable, but due to the fact that there's a delay when switched to liveview and it also consumes more battery, it gives me a guilty feeling when using it. Hence, I would say about 80% of my photos were taken with rangefinder or zone focus.
3. When it comes to the M11 gen, knowing the sensor is always open and metering, plus there is no delay when you switch to liveview, I grew more and more fond of using it. The result is about 50% of my photos were taken using liveview (which is scary! I only got half of that rangefinder exp now!)
So I think M11D does help for those who experienced what I have experienced. It's not so easy as to "not look at the screen". It's the same as "put down the phone and don't use social media". If it's there, you can't help it. 

[JimmyCheng]

11 hours ago, bubbachua said:

To each his own is a good way to call the discussion.

i loved the M10D’s ergonomics, not the lack of screen. In my use i have realized a need for a screen and also got a visoflex for my M11 when i bought faster lenses. Certain types of photography on the street makes the screen useful in framing at certain angles. That’s my viewpoint on screens and digital. If you don’t want a screen switch it off? How difficult is that.

now, if they had kept the lever for M11D and maybe ISO dial as well, I’d love it too. But they took away the things i liked about its predecessor and further simplified the product, hence my view that its a reduction of costs and charging a premium over the M11/P.

your points there are well noted, but then again they could also cost next to nothing incrementally from a fixed cost perspective in a production line.

technology firmware updates and integration are part and parcel for every new product release, it would have cost the same for any M11D or future M11P version or m12. Staff training… really? lol… 

you know that the m11d has a dedicated top-plate compared to regular M11 versions. That is not COST CUTTING.

[hdmesa]

57 minutes ago, JimmyCheng said:

It doesn't actually work that way if I am being honest. Here is my personal experience using every gen of M, and I think some might agree with me. 
1. When I was using my M9, because of the lack of liveview and shitty screen resolution, I shoot with rangefinder or zone focus 100% of the time.
2. When I got the M10 gen, even though the liveview is more usable, but due to the fact that there's a delay when switched to liveview and it also consumes more battery, it gives me a guilty feeling when using it. Hence, I would say about 80% of my photos were taken with rangefinder or zone focus.
3. When it comes to the M11 gen, knowing the sensor is always open and metering, plus there is no delay when you switch to liveview, I grew more and more fond of using it. The result is about 50% of my photos were taken using liveview (which is scary! I only got half of that rangefinder exp now!)
So I think M11D does help for those who experienced what I have experienced. It's not so easy as to "not look at the screen". It's the same as "put down the phone and don't use social media". If it's there, you can't help it. 

I had the same experience with the M11, and especially the M11M because it's critical not to blow the highlights on the monochrome sensor. I found myself using live view on the LCD more and more. One of the last outings I had with the M11M, I used the LCD the entire time.

I've really been liking my M11-D. If the lighting is tricky and the photo is critical, I bracket the exposure. So I shoot like I would with film, but then when I'm done shooting and am sitting down with others afterward, I can turn on the camera, start FOTOS, then look at a virtual "contact sheet" from the day. That way I just look like everyone else, checking my phone. The images on the phone are of course much larger than they would be on the M11/P LCD, too.

Anyway, it's working for me so far.

 

 

Edited November 28, 2024 by hdmesa

[setuporg]

Going back to E60 after M11D is refreshing.  No iphone lurking by.  No way to sneak in.  It just works.  No EVF of any kind.  The secret channel defeats the purpose.  All or nothing!

[AnakChan]

I feel like I'm in the minority here but maybe happy M11 owners don't post (enough?). I've never had my M11 freeze but I'm on v1.6.1. I've had the blowout highlights only once or twice in my 8 months owning the M11.  I only switched from the Typ240 to the M11 'cos I wanted something slimmer. Prior to that I had the M9 with its sensor replaced and now kinda regret selling it for the 240 back then.

However, as a long term Leica user since 2001 starting with the M6 TTL and M7 in 2002 (which I still have), personally I feel that firmwares have never been Leica's strong suit when they dipped their toes in digital. I had the M9 in 2011 & Typ240 in 2014 & at some point or another, they've had one commonly-encountered issue or another. Unlike other brands (namely Japanese), the firmware issues are somewhat more obscure or niche use-case (I'm not talking about a binary "yes" or "no" as every brand has had some level of firmware issues in their respective lives), but playing the odds, Leica digitals seem to have issues in the commonly-used functionality areas of the firmware, whilst other brands seem to have bedded those in but have more niche/obscure issues.

Probably why I still keep my trusty old M7 who's served me well in 22 yrs. I can't speak for the newer Leica films but I trust they are just mechanically/electronically reliable but film cameras aren't immune to issues either. Who remembers when the Canon EOS-3 had a -2/3 under exposure in all their units back in ~1998?

But, all the chatter/debates on M11's reliability online/offline does not deter me from using mine - not only don't I have the issues others may have, and other idiosyncrasies such as slow startup (compared to Nikons/Canons, etc), really doesn't stop me from the greater overall joy of not only using my M11, but seeing its results.

[fenykepesz]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb setuporg:

Going back to E60 after M11D is refreshing.  No iphone lurking by.

i agree with that although i use an m11d these days - but my phone it too old to run FOTOS - hence i still get the look & feel of holding an M60 that you speak about 😊

Edited November 28, 2024 by fenykepesz

[lct]

9 hours ago, AnakChan said:

I feel like I'm in the minority here but maybe happy M11 owners don't post (enough?) [...]

On this good old forum some people love the M11 so much that they brag when they sell it, like my cat when he brings me a mouse 😄

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[hdmesa]

13 hours ago, AnakChan said:

...maybe happy M11 owners don't post (enough?)...

Just wait until the M12 comes out, and we all start coming forward like zombies out of a dark forest to tell everyone how the older model is better.