Wish list for the SL3 firmware…..please Leica

[Dsauro]

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So I just returned from a workshop in Yosemite.

ALL other “non  Leica” Leica participants  utilized focus stacking within their capture options.   Given that there were many intimate photo shooting assignments requiring the opportunity to play with various aperture settings and depth a field, I was at the disadvantage of manually adjusting focus for depth of field, while other participants could adjust depth of field within seconds!   Given that Lightroom can round trip with Helicon Focus for maximum sharpness and depth of field, those other cameras, (Hasselblad, Sony, Canon, etc) have a material software advantage over Leica regarding the flexibility of software tools.

I am seriously severing my commitment to Leica because of the hesitance in maintaining “par” in the technical availability with the completion .   There was one other participant who is now seriously considering leaving the Leica brand for the same reasons.   

I am perplexed as to why Leica is so hesitant to introduce and reintroduce focus stacking and multishot firmware upgrades.

Hasselblad ….. I see you in my future !

Sorry Leica.  You are losing a loyal customer 

 

 

 

[SrMi]

I doubt that focus bracketing and multishot availability can improve your photography. For landscape photography with medium and shorter lenses, manual focus bracketing works well. How much experience do you have with focus bracketing and stacking?

I never found multi shot useful for landscape photography, there is too much movement (wind, air) that reduces IQ.

Most great landscape photographs were done with manual focus and without multi-shot.

[LocalHero1953]

Baffled - if focus stacking is vital to your photography, why did you buy a SL3, and why take it on a workshop where you needed it? Why didn’t you buy the Hasselblad in the first place?

[JeffWright]

On 11/15/2024 at 6:49 PM, Dsauro said:

So I just returned from a workshop in Yosemite.

ALL other “non  Leica” Leica participants  utilized focus stacking within their capture options.   Given that there were many intimate photo shooting assignments requiring the opportunity to play with various aperture settings and depth a field, I was at the disadvantage of manually adjusting focus for depth of field, while other participants could adjust depth of field within seconds!   Given that Lightroom can round trip with Helicon Focus for maximum sharpness and depth of field, those other cameras, (Hasselblad, Sony, Canon, etc) have a material software advantage over Leica regarding the flexibility of software tools.

I am seriously severing my commitment to Leica because of the hesitance in maintaining “par” in the technical availability with the completion .   There was one other participant who is now seriously considering leaving the Leica brand for the same reasons.   

I am perplexed as to why Leica is so hesitant to introduce and reintroduce focus stacking and multishot firmware upgrades.

Hasselblad ….. I see you in my future !

Sorry Leica.  You are losing a loyal customer 

 

 

 

 

Timely topic. David is a huge Leica advocate and great photographer. 

This workshop was led by William Neill (https://portfolios.williamneill.com/about) and Alex Noriega (https://www.alexnoriega.com). Two generations of photographers, with Bill Neill having worked with Ansel Adams. Both of these photographers have incorporated focus stacki heavily into their workflows.

OK, confession, I'm the other guy thinking about leaving the SL system. To put this in perspective, my Leica history for landscape photography started with an R9/DMR.  I stuck with Leica through the S system and patiently waited out the focus motor debacle.  I bought an SL the second day they were available, and an SL2 as soon as I could get my hands on one. I lucked into an SL3 on release day.  

[JeffWright]

On 11/15/2024 at 10:25 PM, LocalHero1953 said:

Baffled - if focus stacking is vital to your photography, why did you buy a SL3, and why take it on a workshop where you needed it? Why didn’t you buy the Hasselblad in the first place?

Well gosh, no one had fly-by-wire focus stacking 15 years ago, but here we are. OK, self-fact check, you could focus bracket on some of the Contax film cameras...

I can't speak for David, but there I'll make two points:
(1) needs and interests change, and seeing how other use tools like focus stacking can mold those interests and needs
(2) Leica glass

It's not unreasonable to expect Leica to incorporate cutting edge technology into their professional full frame cameras, especially when that camera is the most expensive one in it's class.

Edited November 17, 2024 by JeffWright

[JeffWright]

On 11/15/2024 at 9:29 PM, SrMi said:

I doubt that focus bracketing and multishot availability can improve your photography. For landscape photography with medium and shorter lenses, manual focus bracketing works well. How much experience do you have with focus bracketing and stacking?

I never found multi shot useful for landscape photography, there is too much movement (wind, air) that reduces IQ.

Most great landscape photographs were done with manual focus and without multi-shot.

If you've not found multistack useful, then perhaps it's a you thing. 

Most "great landscape photographs" were done with large format film and manual focus, because those were the tools the photographers had available. And if you think movement from wind, etc, is only a problem in focus stacking, then you've never set up a 4 x 5 or 8 x 10 film camera with ASA 100 film and had to use them at f32 of f64.

Perhaps some of us don't want to make the same photographs. And I sure as hell don't want to go back to lugging around a 4x5 or MF film camera (all of which I've used extensively).

Edited November 17, 2024 by JeffWright

[SrMi]

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1 hour ago, JeffWright said:

If you've not found multistack useful, then perhaps it's a you thing. 

Most "great landscape photographs" were done with large format film and manual focus, because those were the tools the photographers had available. And if you think movement from wind, etc, is only a problem in focus stacking, then you've never set up a 4 x 5 or 8 x 10 film camera with ASA 100 film and had to use them at f32 of f64.

What do you refer to with "multistack?"

Motion blur caused by a slow shutter speed looks natural, though it may be unwanted. Motion artifacts caused by motion in focus-stacked images look ugly and require tedious fixing in Helicon or Zerene. The same is true for motion in multishots without motion artifact removal.

I have been using manual focus bracketing for landscape, both handheld and on a tripod, with success. Focus bracketing is very useful when DOF is very shallow, i.e., macro and with long lenses. Can you elaborate on why manual focus bracketing was not an option in the workshop you attended?

I wish focus bracketing would be added to SL cameras before a Leica macro lens is announced. I suggest that people send focus bracketing requests to Leica.

Edited November 17, 2024 by SrMi

[jaapv]

Personally I prefer Photomerge in PS as it is simple to select and remove  in the offending layer. 

[SrMi]

7 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Personally I prefer Photomerge in PS as it is simple to select and remove  in the offending layer. 

I prefer doing as much as possible in the camera as long as I have raw as output. Without multiple exposure support, you cannot see the created effect in the camera.

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, JeffWright said:

Well gosh, no one had fly-by-wire focus stacking 15 years ago, but here we are. OK, self-fact check, you could focus bracket on some of the Contax film cameras...

I can't speak for David, but there I'll make two points:
(1) needs and interests change, and seeing how other use tools like focus stacking can mold those interests and needs
(2) Leica glass

It's not unreasonable to expect Leica to incorporate cutting edge technology into their professional full frame cameras, especially when that camera is the most expensive one in it's class.

I would welcome focus stacking in a camera that I might want to buy. But I'd check if it had it before buying.

Your last sentence has been repeated so many times in many posts here about Leica cameras, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I have never expected Leica to incorporate cutting edge technology in any of their cameras. As a consequence, I am happy when they do, but not disappointed when they do not.

[Photoworks]

I wonder why they ever bothered to add Follow Focus in the video, I don't know anyone that ever used it outside of making a review.

I feel similar about focus bracketing, but if it is there you can use it or not, ignore it if it is not for you.

Firmware updates? I think at Leica you get 2 a year, so make them count with something everyone can use. For me "fix AF" goes first.

 

The landscape people should consider multiple tools, if Hasseblad is what you need that is what you should get. I am sure there is something to complain about Hasselblad too, electronic shudder on adapted lenses perhaps..

[SrMi]

31 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

I wonder why they ever bothered to add Follow Focus in the video, I don't know anyone that ever used it outside of making a review.

I feel similar about focus bracketing, but if it is there you can use it or not, ignore it if it is not for you.

Firmware updates? I think at Leica you get 2 a year, so make them count with something everyone can use. For me "fix AF" goes first.

 

The landscape people should consider multiple tools, if Hasseblad is what you need that is what you should get. I am sure there is something to complain about Hasselblad too, electronic shudder on adapted lenses perhaps..

With Hasselblad, the lack of live highlight clipping is a reason to complain, especially since the live histogram is too tiny to be useful for setting exposure.

Electronic shutter is not an issue for landscape photography.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

I prefer doing as much as possible in the camera as long as I have raw as output. Without multiple exposure support, you cannot see the created effect in the camera.

Agree.

[jaapv]

Coming back to the OP of this thread, if a landscape workshop can only teach focus stacking, it is not worth the money paid for it. Wasn’t there truly great work done before the advent of the technique? Was Ansel Adams a second rate photographer for the lack of it?  And he was a medium to full format (AKA shallow DOF) photographer. The workshop should have taught you how to get great results through composition and use of the plane of focus for emphasis, not making picture postcards, sharp from back to front. Actually a smartphone is great at doing just that…

[JeffWright]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

What do you refer to with "multistack?"

Motion blur caused by a slow shutter speed looks natural, though it may be unwanted. Motion artifacts caused by motion in focus-stacked images look ugly and require tedious fixing in Helicon or Zerene. The same is true for motion in multishots without motion artifact removal.

I have been using manual focus bracketing for landscape, both handheld and on a tripod, with success. Focus bracketing is very useful when DOF is very shallow, i.e., macro and with long lenses. Can you elaborate on why manual focus bracketing was not an option in the workshop you attended?

I wish focus bracketing would be added to SL cameras before a Leica macro lens is announced. I suggest that people send focus bracketing requests to Leica.

Sorry, I was non-specific. Focus stacking is a subset of multistacking images.

No one ever said, or even implied, that manual focus stacking was not an option in this workshop. It's just hugely inconvenient, for a variety of reasons.  For instance, you're in freezing weather with gloves on, with a telephoto lens at say 250 mm. You have a 3-dimensional subject say, 5 feet away. It's low light, and it's difficult to judge focus due to image complexity. You're in an environment where the light is changing very quickly, sometimes within seconds-say Yosemite Valley with clouds and and a rising sun.

Here's an example form said workshop. 
Technical details: Tripod RRS TVC34, Arca Swiss D4 geared tripod head.
Leica SL3, Vario-Elmar SL 100-400 at 250 mm, manual focus throw set to 240 degrees
10 images 1/4 s, f/22, ISO 400 manual focus stack, processed in Lightroom->Helicon Focus

Note that even with this setup locked down (and 30 years of long lens tripod experience, it's possible to accidentally change framing on the camera just with manual focus adjustments, particularly above 300mm. And I"ve done stacking all the way to 600mm.

This image may or may not be successful, I haven't finished processing it yet, and I'm not even sure I like it enough to bother. But it took me 2-3 minutes to focus stack this manually, It takes only a few seconds to do it with cameras that have in camera bracketing.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[JeffWright]

Here's an example of an image that I could NOT successfully create a stack on with the Leica SL3. This was the first shot, by the time I finished the 5th in the stack, the light and reflections were markedly different. Merced River, Yosemite Valley, reflection of El Capitan and Oakleaf Maples.  This would have been handled easily by say a Canon R5 with a 100-500 L lens. It would probably take upwards of 50 images to get a decent stack. This is 352 mm....

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited November 17, 2024 by JeffWright

[JeffWright]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Coming back to the OP of this thread, if a landscape workshop can only teach focus stacking, it is not worth the money paid for it. Wasn’t there truly great work done before the advent of the technique? Was Ansel Adams a second rate photographer for the lack of it?  And he was a medium to full format (AKA shallow DOF) photographer. The workshop should have taught you how to get great results through composition and use of the plane of focus for emphasis, not making picture postcards, sharp from back to front. Actually a smartphone is great at doing just that…

Oh for Pete's sake, the workshop wasn't only on focus stacking. It's just another tool. Frankly, I don't even remember it being taught as a topic. It just came up as a part of the types of images some of us were trying to make.

Truly great work was done when people were only using glass plate negatives, so probably not best to go down that logic road.

[SrMi]

24 minutes ago, JeffWright said:

Here's an example of an image that I could NOT successfully create a stack on with the Leica SL3. This was the first shot, by the time I finished the 5th in the stack, the light and reflections were markedly different. Merced River, Yosemite Valley, reflection of El Capitan and Oakleaf Maples.  This would have been handled easily by say a Canon R5 with a 100-500 L lens. It would probably take upwards of 50 images to get a decent stack. This is 352 mm....

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Yes, focus bracketing is necessary when shooting with long lenses. Manual focus bracketing is not an option in that case. Many (including Leica) believe focus bracketing is only needed for macro shooting. That is not the case.

By the way, I do not think moving water is a good candidate for focus bracketing and stacking. Your previous image of static leaves would work well with focus bracketing.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I don't get threads like these.

Had Leica said *focus stacking is coming*, sure. But they didn't. So, it's on the buyer to check if a system has the functions they require. Shouldn't you be angry at yourself because you didn't do the research, rather than Leica who has never made claims about stacking in the SL3?

Gordon

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[SrMi]

37 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I don't get threads like these.

Had Leica said *focus stacking is coming*, sure. But they didn't. So, it's on the buyer to check if a system has the functions they require. Shouldn't you be angry at yourself because you didn't do the research, rather than Leica who has never made claims about stacking in the SL3?

Gordon

I agree. OP was apparently fine without focus bracketing until he attended the workshop.