M11-D internal memory fault and freezing

[hdmesa]

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11 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

What M11 issue is not legit? Are there any fake issues?

If someone comes in with old firmware, gets advice to update firmware, then they do so and see the issue was resolved, I don't consider that an "M11 issue". That's a user that just needed some help. I'm guilty of that type of ignorance, having used defective Sony Tough SD cards in the past and only recently realizing it. 

If you followed the "official" M11 freeze thread from the beginning, there were many fake accounts from former banned users coming in and falsely amplifying real issues the rest of us, including me, were having.

So yes, if an issue is clearly user error, I don't consider that a legitimate issue with the camera. Why should I?

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[Derbyshire Man]

On 11/16/2024 at 10:46 PM, setuporg said:

Tried with Linux, jmtpfs cannot connect to the device, not recognizing it.  Even though Image Capture and Lightroom do connect and show Leica M11-D name, as well as Windows.  Putting in Apple MFi mode (app) works and FOTOS open the gallery as on Wi-Fi but again only a handful of thumbnails is showing and nothing could be downloaded.

Inserting a card and using Image Capture downloads anything from the card fine.  So it's not the cable/socket.  It's the internal memory or software related to it.

Any update?

[Mahesh]

Till date there has not been clear communication on why there have been these freezes. I think there should have been considering that they went on for so long (assuming that's the end of them). 

It is a design/production error and not a user error. User error is it you are taking a picture when the battery is out or lens cap is on (which I do sometimes)

[setuporg]

The freezes on this camera in this state are now repeatedly reproducible.  After each failed read attempt.  It is going to Wetzlar, eventually, for examination end extraction.  I'll report if there's anything to share, perhaps months down then road.  Fingers crossed.  For now very happy I haven't traded in the M11-P that was used with the internal memory for a year without a problem.  I do not recall filling it up though.

So a very simple test of your M11-D would be: fill it up and see what happens.  Import everything as you go without emptying.

Needless to say I am always running the latest firmware.  One thing I regret is not getting back into the beta program for instant background push.  That way I'd have at least JPG previews saved.  Reset to factory settings does nothing while also preserving the (botched) state of the internal memory.

From now on, I won't be using Leica internal memory in any camera until reliable tools exist to salvage its contents. Eg the minimum needed on the D would be to have it copy files to an SD card with in-camera functions.

Edited November 21, 2024 by setuporg

[fenykepesz]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb setuporg:

So a very simple test of your M11-D would be: fill it up and see what happens.  Import everything as you go without emptying.

wow, sorry to hear, @setuporg !  something may have happened to the internal SSD's filesystem.  if you don't mind i will skip the m11d test you mentioned - i prefer to stay on safe grounds...

[Tseg]

I'm sure they will sort it out, but sorry for you it is such a PITA.   All part of the journey.  

I just tried using the internal storage for the first time for a few pics.  While it worked fine, I noticed it offloads via USB-C much slower than my off-loading a 300mb/s SD card directly into the same computer.  Also, while I produce both jpg + dng files, the SD card drops a single image into Apple Photos and I can toggle the image between the two.  When I download from internal memory it is producing 2 images in Apple Photos... 1 dng + 1 jpg.

I prefer the SD card interaction so will go back to using the internal as a second backup source if my SD card ever fills.  It will be interesting to hear if Leica ever provide feedback what the actual issue is with your internal memory.  

[hdmesa]

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12 hours ago, Al Brown said:

In my book buying a brand new M11 and having a factory firmware that freezes the camera will just never be user error. Updates are neither mandatory nor clearly communicated to fix problems by Leica in an urgent email to users. Claiming not taking these actions as an average user who is not informed enough is user error (update to fix freezes only available after 2 years from the model issue) is just not acceptable in my book. By claiming such things some folks here are trying to convince users it is their fault and not Leicas which IT IS NOT. And that is called gaslighting. There is an interesting Bergman movie to see on the subject: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0036855/

Buying a $9K camera and not keeping the firmware up to date is asinine.

Leica making a $9K camera that didn't get solid firmware until two years later is also asinine.

Edited November 21, 2024 by hdmesa

[Smogg]

8 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Buying a $9K camera and not keeping the firmware up to date is asinine. Period. Call it gaslighting if it makes you feel better.

What does the price of the camera have to do with it? I noticed that most famous photographers have a poor understanding of technical nuances, they are immersed in the creative process. The camera should work reliably with any firmware. Ideally, the user should not regularly sit on the forum and read about how to bypass this or that bug. New firmware should only bring new features.

[hdmesa]

Just now, Smogg said:

What does the price of the camera have to do with it?

I guess if someone has more money than sense then it doesn't matter at all.

Just now, Smogg said:

The camera should work reliably with any firmware. Ideally...

Ideally my car would never get a recall, either. But I don't continue to drive it until it leaves me stranded on the roadside out of spite. I take it in and get it fixed. If you register your camera, you will get an email when new firmware is released. 

I feel like I'm the one being gaslighted here because I've had to update the firmware on all my cameras to fix issues. What brand camera has perfect 1.0 firmware? I need to move everything to that brand.

[Smogg]

8 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I guess if someone has more money than sense then it doesn't matter at all.

Ideally my car would never get a recall, either. But I don't continue to drive it until it leaves me stranded on the roadside out of spite. I take it in and get it fixed. If you register your camera, you will get an email when new firmware is released. 

I feel like I'm the one being gaslighted here because I've had to update the firmware on all my cameras to fix issues. What brand camera has perfect 1.0 firmware? I need to move everything to that brand.

Errors can be different. I don't remember Canon, Nikon or Sony allowing such global bugs. Usually these are minor fixes in particular cases of use in their firmware.

In addition, the fix period plays a key role. Pros rarely chase new cameras, they usually do not rush to buy and when they buy a camera, it already has a non-initial firmware

[IkarusJohn]

7 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I feel like I'm the one being gaslighted here because I've had to update the firmware on all my cameras to fix issues. What brand camera has perfect 1.0 firmware? I need to move everything to that brand.

I don’t think you’re being gaslighted at all.  The discussion is simply in response to your comment a page back that “this is a legit” issue, implying that some issues aren’t legit.

No one disagrees (I hope) that sometimes there are bugs in new products; more so in products using electronics with firmware and software.  However, I do think it is legitimate to challenge that acceptance.  Your experience is a case in point.  It is not at all unreasonable for a person who buys a camera to expect that if you have a charged battery, an SD card or internal memory, a lens, lens cap off and you turn it on for an image to be captured.  It just needs to do what it says on the tin.  That seems to have been hard to achieve for Leica with this camera.

My own experience, as I’ve said before, EVERY digital Leica I have had has gone back to Solms or Wetzlar; in at least one case, twice.  So I can be forgiven, I hope, for not buying an M11 (though that was not because of the problems the camera seems to have had, @lct notwithstanding).

It’s not good enough.

[hdmesa]

3 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I don’t think you’re being gaslighted at all.  The discussion is simply in response to your comment a page back that “this is a legit” issue, implying that some issues aren’t legit.

No one disagrees (I hope) that sometimes there are bugs in new products; more so in products using electronics with firmware and software.  However, I do think it is legitimate to challenge that acceptance.  Your experience is a case in point.  It is not at all unreasonable for a person who buys a camera to expect that if you have a charged battery, an SD card or internal memory, a lens, lens cap off and you turn it on for an image to be captured.  It just needs to do what it says on the tin.  That seems to have been hard to achieve for Leica with this camera.

My own experience, as I’ve said before, EVERY digital Leica I have had has gone back to Solms or Wetzlar; in at least one case, twice.  So I can be forgiven, I hope, for not buying an M11 (though that was not because of the problems the camera seems to have had, @lct notwithstanding).

It’s not good enough.

I can see how "legit issue" might be taken the wrong way, so I apologize.

I was also referring to the fake accounts we get here that pile on. Perhaps I could have better phrased that as "non-legit accounts posting about legit issues".

I think we can find a balance between "the camera should be perfect at launch" and "the user should take ownership for care and maintenance of their gear". Updating the firmware is right up there with keeping the body exterior clean, occasionally cleaning the sensor when needed, etc. Routine maintenance. Perhaps I'm in the minority there, I just assumed I wasn't.

Agree that whatever state the M11 is currently in, how it got here is not good enough. Leica should do better.

[hdmesa]

15 minutes ago, Smogg said:

Errors can be different. I don't remember Canon, Nikon or Sony allowing such global bugs...

I would agree if this were pre-COVID supply chain, but I owned the Canon R5, and I had M11-style firmware and hardware trouble/freezes with it, as did others. There are still some people with R5 that freeze up, and that camera was released before the M11, plus Canon has way more resources than Leica.

Recently I had the Zf for a while, and that camera was rock solid. Hopefully post-COVID issues are largely behind us.

[setuporg]

Just a few more thoughts.  Tried absolutely everything user-facing, like

• Switch PTP/MFi mode.  FOTOS could connect via USB-C in App mode but shows the same gallery as over Wi-Fi, no downloads.
• Turn connection on/off.
• Take the battery out for a day.
• Connect to Mac/Windows/Linux.

I've also been using Hasselblad X2D with 1TB of internal memory with no issues and M11-P with no issues at all.  I think I've filled up the X2D a few times and continued on a CFExpress.  

There are good recovery tools for drives so I'd use SD card from now on.  Background push can't come soon enough.

[Smogg]

10 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

I would agree if this were pre-COVID supply chain, but I owned the Canon R5, and I had M11-style firmware and hardware trouble/freezes with it, as did others. There are still some people with R5 that freeze up, and that camera was released before the M11, plus Canon has way more resources than Leica.

Recently I had the Zf for a while, and that camera was rock solid. Hopefully post-COVID issues are largely behind us.

I had an R5 and had no problems with it, but I admit that, like with the M11, there were different examples and opinions. However, you can replace or repair a Canon in a week, so it does not cause such irritation. As for the influence of the company's size on the quality of the product, then let's be completely honest: the Canon R5 camera provides "500" different options, while the M11 only "5", so the firmware in Canon is tens of times more complex than the fairly basic firmware in the M11, accordingly, debugging the firmware in the M11 requires significantly fewer man-hours.

[hdmesa]

1 minute ago, Smogg said:

I had an R5 and had no problems with it, but I admit that, like with the M11, there were different examples and opinions. However, you can replace or repair a Canon in a week, so it does not cause such irritation. As for the influence of the company's size on the quality of the product, then let's be completely honest: the Canon R5 camera provides "500" different options, while the M11 only "5", so the firmware in Canon is tens of times more complex than the fairly basic firmware in the M11, accordingly, debugging the firmware in the M11 requires significantly fewer man-hours.

Fair enough. I also had more than one copy of the R5, and the later ones were solid. Never knew whether that was hardware or firmware or both at play.

[hdmesa]

9 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Just a few more thoughts.  Tried absolutely everything user-facing, like

• Switch PTP/MFi mode.  FOTOS could connect via USB-C in App mode but shows the same gallery as over Wi-Fi, no downloads.
• Turn connection on/off.
• Take the battery out for a day.
• Connect to Mac/Windows/Linux.

I've also been using Hasselblad X2D with 1TB of internal memory with no issues and M11-P with no issues at all.  I think I've filled up the X2D a few times and continued on a CFExpress.  

There are good recovery tools for drives so I'd use SD card from now on.  Background push can't come soon enough.

Can you exchange or return it? I would have given up the moment someone started talking about running Linux code on it.

I haven't used the internal memory on my M11-D and don't plan to until they add the option to format it to FOTOS.

[Mahesh]

55 minutes ago, Smogg said:

I had an R5 and had no problems with it, but I admit that, like with the M11, there were different examples and opinions. However, you can replace or repair a Canon in a week, so it does not cause such irritation. As for the influence of the company's size on the quality of the product, then let's be completely honest: the Canon R5 camera provides "500" different options, while the M11 only "5", so the firmware in Canon is tens of times more complex than the fairly basic firmware in the M11, accordingly, debugging the firmware in the M11 requires significantly fewer man-hours.

I think Leica jumped too far with all the tech they were trying to cram in triple resolution and what not and maybe the processor isn't strong enough to handle all that. I don't remember any other Leica camera having so much history of freezes. My M10-R was good as gold and so was M10-P. Sadly I let go in anticipation of M11, M11-P, M11-D and so on. Every time I waited for a new M11 variant to come with absolutely no freezes but the issues keep ongoing. 

Without gaslighting anyone and having to excuse myself for that, I never had any issues with my Fuji and Sony cameras without upgrading firmware even once. I have never bothered looking at support pages for those cameras and I have had a few!

Anyway, that's me... 

Edited November 21, 2024 by Mahesh

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[lct]

1 hour ago, Mahesh said:

[...] I don't remember any other Leica camera having so much history of freezes [...]

The last bugfix for freeze happened in 2016 on the M240 if memory serves. Makes 3 or 4 years after its launch so all hope is not lost 😁

[Velo-city]

22 hours ago, Mahesh said:

I think Leica jumped too far with all the tech they were trying to cram in triple resolution and what not and maybe the processor isn't strong enough to handle all that.

I agree.  The ambition was there, but the final execution is wrong.  There's something very off in their OS and file handling for sure.  Can't even remember getting a 'file unreadable' type error on any other camera ever, but welcome to Leica M-world, where that's just one of the 'quirks' of owning this exclusive expensive system  

Not sure about their processor, but my educated guess is it's a mix of hardware and software integration, and they are probably just too small, or have the wrong setup/attitude for it.  Lots of companies without backgrounds in software development underestimate what's truly involved as they enter a more computer based world -  I've seen it happen in other areas.  To be fair, to rival what a behemoth like Sony can achieve - with their huge skillset and knowledge base across the whole micro-electronic and computer spectrum -  is something. Colour-science aside, I think they pulled off the sensor part pretty well, it's the back-end bits that are off IMO.

Clearly their alpha/beta test setup isn't performing well.  I've done both over the years and this sort of stuff would NEVER get through to production or stay a problem for so long with a good setup.  Two and a half years - come on!  That's pretty much the lifespan of other brands flagship models. My guess is they have too few people, without the relevant experience, and testing too gently.  And/or the feedback loop isn't working -  the testers should be hungry to try and 'break' things and the dev team should be hungry to receive the feedback and address it. Failing that, they've just used some incompatible components that aren't playing nice together and trying to code around them isn't working. Or they bought components from different places and not tracked them and they're not all performing the same. Who knows, could be anything.  Chances are the M12 will be much more stable from day one if they stick with mostly the same parts (like the sensor), and update the supporting componentry - and test it thoroughly of course!

None of this helps @setuporg, but he's somewhat lucky - not only is he part of this forum and quite technical but also has a backup camera.  Might not save his pics but..... other people won't be so lucky.