jyrkialanen Posted January 3 Share #101 Posted January 3 Advertisement (gone after registration) 1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said: Q (no equivalent concept even now) Please don't make things up. Sony RX1 was the first full frame compact camera and was released four years before first Leica Q. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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SrMi Posted January 3 Share #102 Posted January 3 3 hours ago, Kim Dahl said: I don't think anyone - besides Sony and Canon - has a stacked censor ? Nikon, Fuji, Olympus have stacked sensors. I would say that most manufacturers have stacked sensors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted January 3 Share #103 Posted January 3 37 minutes ago, jyrkialanen said: Please don't make things up. Sony RX1 was the first full frame compact camera and was released four years before first Leica Q. Your tone says more about you than it does about what I wrote. I was aware that the RX1 was earlier. It appears to have been a failure (I thought about getting one, but it had too many limitations), and not repeated. The Q was better, IMO of course, and has been a success, now in its third generation with no direct competitor. The statement I was responding to was whether Leica came out with something beyond what other companies offer. The Q appears to fit the bill. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malabito Posted January 4 Share #104 Posted January 4 9 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said: M9 (first full frame mirrorless, long before Sony, let alone anyone else) SL (best EVF) Q (no equivalent concept even now) ...then one can argue subjective opinions about the SL Apo lenses, colour science, UI etc I suspect you mean sensor tech and AF, and I would agree with you. It's an important aspect (everyone has their favourites), but not the only one in the workflow involved in taking a photo. But I can't think what they could produce in the SL3-S that is likely to be startlingly new - I would have expected that in the SL3. I think only the M9 is really a valid option (you had the Epson before, but yes, not full-frame). The Q is an amazing camera, but you had the RX1 as well. SL: best EVF? Perhaps only for a while... Leica seems to have great ideas but is always somehow behind, except for the M system, which is alone in the market, and part of that old-school experience is what makes it special; therefore, no need for advanced new technology. Just look at the SL3, slow readout speeds, slow buffer, outdated autofocus, great EVF that loses resolution when using AFC... etc., etc. I am an SL2s user waiting for the SL3s to upgrade, but if I were looking for better technology, I would have gone to Nikon, Canon, or Sony. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted January 4 Share #105 Posted January 4 31 minutes ago, Malabito said: I think only the M9 is really a valid option (you had the Epson before, but yes, not full-frame). The Q is an amazing camera, but you had the RX1 as well. SL: best EVF? Perhaps only for a while... Leica seems to have great ideas but is always somehow behind, except for the M system, which is alone in the market, and part of that old-school experience is what makes it special; therefore, no need for advanced new technology. Just look at the SL3, slow readout speeds, slow buffer, outdated autofocus, great EVF that loses resolution when using AFC... etc., etc. I am an SL2s user waiting for the SL3s to upgrade, but if I were looking for better technology, I would have gone to Nikon, Canon, or Sony. Glass half full, glass half empty - it's just subjective. If I were looking only for better AF, faster read-out etc, then I might go to Nikon, Canon or Sony also. But those are only part of what helps me take photos that I'm happy with, a combination of overall design and technology. I don't use Leica kit for the mythical 'magic' or 'glow', but because I find I can take better photos with them. 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malabito Posted January 4 Share #106 Posted January 4 Just now, LocalHero1953 said: Glass half full, glass half empty - it's just subjective. If I were looking only for better AF, faster read-out etc, then I might go to Nikon, Canon or Sony also. But those are only part of what helps me take photos that I'm happy with, a combination of overall design and technology. I don't use Leica kit for the mythical 'magic' or 'glow', but because I find I can take better photos with them. I agree with you, same reason I shoot Leica. My comment was addressed to those who are expecting a global shutter, a fully stacked sensor, fast readout speeds, or excellent autofocus, that it is not going to happen, better look at other brands. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 4 Share #107 Posted January 4 Advertisement (gone after registration) On 1/3/2025 at 12:04 AM, Dr. G said: I'm tempted by the SL3-S For what features and specifications? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 4 Share #108 Posted January 4 5 hours ago, Malabito said: I think only the M9 is really a valid option (you had the Epson before, but yes, not full-frame). The Q is an amazing camera, but you had the RX1 as well. SL: best EVF? Perhaps only for a while... Leica seems to have great ideas but is always somehow behind, except for the M system, which is alone in the market, and part of that old-school experience is what makes it special; therefore, no need for advanced new technology. Just look at the SL3, slow readout speeds, slow buffer, outdated autofocus, great EVF that loses resolution when using AFC... etc., etc. I am an SL2s user waiting for the SL3s to upgrade, but if I were looking for better technology, I would have gone to Nikon, Canon, or Sony. Most of time, I am looking for better images instead of better technology. That's why my SL3 has much more field time than my Z8 or a7rV. Leica is the only manufacturer that implementms perspective control. That feature has become more essential to me than other missing "advanced technologies" mentioned. IIRC, most cameras lower EVF resolution while focusing. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted January 4 Share #109 Posted January 4 15 hours ago, Malabito said: All here dreaming about stacked sensors and fast readout speeds... when has Leica come out with something beyond what other companies are offering? 101% it will not be stacked, nor have fast read out speeds nor it will have great autofocus. Don't forget backlit sensors. Leica wasn't the first (they were already common in smaller phone sensors), but they were first in full-frame. The funny thing is it only became a talking point when Sony implemented the tech and fired-up their influence machine. "BLS full frame" had been quietly mentioned on Towerjazz's website for years, but nobody noticed until then. This led to a funny period where you would read "Sony has BLS, therefore Leica can't possibly compete!", which quieted-down when it was pointed-out that Leica had climbed that particular mountain years earlier. 17 hours ago, Kim Dahl said: I don't think anyone - besides Sony and Canon - has a stacked censor ? I don't think either Canon or Sony will sell it to anyone at this time. It's really a shame I wanted the SL3s to be a really good video camera. And AF like the competitors. It will probably be 4-5 years before Sony sells the stacked censor when they have global censor in all their cameras. Sony's not the only sensor vendor, and they'll sell to anybody. The Sony division that makes semiconductors (including sensors) is completely separate from the division that makes consumer electronics (Playstations and cameras). The assumption that you need a particular tech in order to have "a really good video camera" is something that paid influencers will tell you. If you ask instead "who makes the best cinema camera?", or "what brand of camera has dominated the Oscars in the digital era?", everyone will tell you it's Arri. They've done it with their own sensors (some of which are fabbed by TowerJazz, like the SL sensors was). Sony and Canon also compete in the cinema world (as do Red, Blackmagic, etc.), but most cinematographers will choose Arri if they have the budget. Panasonic is often considered to have the best video AF (S5iiX, S9). For stills, especially sports, it's Canon, followed by Sony. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomasis7 Posted January 4 Share #110 Posted January 4 4 hours ago, jaapv said: For what features and specifications? it got the most important feature: the number 3 instead of the 2. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. G Posted January 4 Share #111 Posted January 4 4 hours ago, jaapv said: For what features and specifications? For any of the things I mentioned in my post. …if that’s what it will bring to the table. No way to know until the actual specs are released and there are reports of real world use. I tried to get some info from someone I know who definitely would have been given a review unit, but he just smiled and stayed silent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
helged Posted January 4 Share #112 Posted January 4 As of now, max fps with continuous AF on SL3 and SL2-S is 4 (14 bit) and 5 (12 bit). To the extent SL3-S will beef up the cAF to, say 10-ish fps, it would mean a lot for me. Assuming that the cAF is mostly doing its job at these frame rates... And Assuming that the sensor read out time/rolling shutter speed is substatually improved compared to the present 20+ ms. I am well aware that other vendors offer higher specs. But I am not looking for the top specs, 'only' improvements like the one mentioned above. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 4 Share #113 Posted January 4 2 hours ago, BernardC said: Don't forget backlit sensors. Leica wasn't the first (they were already common in smaller phone sensors), but they were first in full-frame. Which Leica model was that? Sony had BSI 2015 in a7rII and Nikon 2017 in D850, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LBJ2 Posted January 4 Share #114 Posted January 4 (edited) * Edited January 4 by LBJ2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted January 4 Share #115 Posted January 4 5 hours ago, SrMi said: Which Leica model was that? Sony had BSI 2015 in a7rII and Nikon 2017 in D850, At the time that they started claiming that they fabbed a backlit full frame sensor for photography, their only such product was in in the SL. It could have been a different sensor for a different brand, but I haven't heard of any other full frame customer until the S1 came out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 4 Share #116 Posted January 4 19 minutes ago, BernardC said: At the time that they started claiming that they fabbed a backlit full frame sensor for photography, their only such product was in in the SL. It could have been a different sensor for a different brand, but I haven't heard of any other full frame customer until the S1 came out. To the best of my knowledge, no S series camera has a BSI sensor. The first Leica with a BSI sensor was SL2-S, and the first M with BSI was M11. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted January 4 Share #117 Posted January 4 Backlit sensors were old news by the mid 2010s. Smartphones had used this tech for several generations already, for nearly a decade. Samsung used them in their short-lived still camera line. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 4 Share #118 Posted January 4 No Leica full frame camera had a BSI sensor until the SL2-S in 2021. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardC Posted January 5 Share #119 Posted January 5 2 hours ago, hdmesa said: No Leica full frame camera had a BSI sensor until the SL2-S in 2021. The wayback machine for towersemi only goes back to 2020, but they were already promoting BSI for still photography back then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 5 Share #120 Posted January 5 52 minutes ago, BernardC said: The wayback machine for towersemi only goes back to 2020, but they were already promoting BSI for still photography back then. I’ve never understood the need for some Leica users to try and make a case for stealth BSI sensors being used prior to 2021. We all know how every Leica sensor to date actually performs, so it’s a moot point really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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