Upgrading to an M11 for... the Visoflex?!

[JoshuaR]

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I'm a hobbyist who shoots with an M10-R, an M10M, and an SL2-S. I have the SL2-S mainly for long-lens photography: I take it to my kids' games and performances and use 75mm, 90mm, 135mm, and 180mm lenses. But it's a big camera and, outside of those times, I don't use it much.

Lately I've been wondering: What if I sold all three cameras and upgraded to an M11 variant with the Visoflex, and maybe a Q3? That would give me a smaller autofocus / bad weather camera. And I could use my 75, 90, 135, and 180 on the M11.

Would the experience of using the Visoflex be dramatically worse than the SL2-S? I'm thinking less of performance photography and more about sports. I find the SL2-S with a 135, say, to be an easy and fun combination: I just manually focus using peaking in the big, bright viewfinder, and it allows me to follow the action in a quick, fluid way. There's very little shutter blackout and it's all very intuitive.

How suitable would the Visoflex be for that kind of situation? I've never used one. (Everything I heard about the Visoflex 020 on the M10 convinced me to just leap directly to the SL2-S, rather than try that route.)

(There are all sorts of other considerations, of course, which I won't bore the forum with—should I give up the M10M? etc.—but the Visoflex is the main thing: if the experience is a lot worse, then it's not worth considering such a trade.)

Thanks for any insights!

Edited October 1, 2024 by JoshuaRothman

[hdmesa]

The SL2-S EVF is the best I've ever used. The Visoflex 2 will be a big downgrade, IMO, and also requires you select an M or R lens profile so that the camera knows the focal length in order to apply digital stabilization to the image in the Visoflex 2 (no stabilization is applied to the image, this is just to help you have a steady image to see with). 

You'll lose IBIS stabilization, which could be a big deal at these longer focal lengths. That would probably be ok at high shutter speeds for sports, but it's going to be a big loss for indoor performances.

Longer lenses will be unwieldily on an M camera compared to the SL2-S even with a grip added to the M.

Honestly, I couldn't think of a worse camera to shoot longer lenses on than an M.

[JoshuaR]

51 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

The SL2-S EVF is the best I've ever used. The Visoflex 2 will be a big downgrade, IMO, and also requires you select an M or R lens profile so that the camera knows the focal length in order to apply digital stabilization to the image in the Visoflex 2 (no stabilization is applied to the image, this is just to help you have a steady image to see with). 

You'll lose IBIS stabilization, which could be a big deal at these longer focal lengths. That would probably be ok at high shutter speeds for sports, but it's going to be a big loss for indoor performances.

Longer lenses will be unwieldily on an M camera compared to the SL2-S even with a grip added to the M.

Honestly, I couldn't think of a worse camera to shoot longer lenses on than an M.

This is very helpful, thank you!

The allure of a more streamlined setup is what's got me thinking along these lines. But it's also good to have the right tool for the right job....

[Crem]

 

6 hours ago, JoshuaRothman said:

Would the experience of using the Visoflex be dramatically worse than the SL2-S? I'm thinking less of performance photography and more about sports. I find the SL2-S with a 135, say, to be an easy and fun combination: I just manually focus using peaking in the big, bright viewfinder, and it allows me to follow the action in a quick, fluid way. There's very little shutter blackout and it's all very intuitive.

How suitable would the Visoflex be for that kind of situation? I've never used one. (Everything I heard about the Visoflex 020 on the M10 convinced me to just leap directly to the SL2-S, rather than try that route.)

Yes I believe it is dramatically worse unless you plan on using the tilt feature a lot. I own a VisoFlex 2 that I don't use anymore because I got a great deal on a SL2-S. The longest lens I've used with a M is a 90mm. I really can't imagine going any longer than that with a M + VisoFlex 2. You would be way better off with the SL2-S both because of the better EVF, grip, and size.

Edited October 2, 2024 by Crem

[satijntje]

I would stay with M10-R and M10-M.
IMO this is still the perfect M combo.
I went twice to M11 (and M11M) but with the known problems, I returned twice back to the M10 series (M10-R BP and M10-M).
There will be no third time for me for sure.

[le7]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb hdmesa:

[...]

Honestly, I couldn't think of a worse camera to shoot longer lenses on than an M.

Couldn`t agree more. I have used heavy R lenses on the M with Visoflex, but completely stopped it and sold all of my R lenses from the analogue era. Using such heavy lenses on a M is a mess. The M is built for the small and relatively lightweight M lenses.

[setuporg]

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I've just gotten the visoflex 2 for an M11-D.  Just in case.  No need for it in a regular body.

[pedaes]

7 minutes ago, setuporg said:

No need for it in a regular body.

Bit of a bold statement. I find it very helpful with a 15mm lens, camera on tripod, Viso angled up to see what lens is seeing.

Also I think the latest Leica 'close focus' lenses  would benefit from it at closest focus.

[newtoleica]

Stick with the SL2... Its the ideal tool for longer lenses and fast moving subjects. The M is really best for street and documentary photography where small camera, unobtrusive, and a very careful style of work is needed. It can be used for travel and family stuff, but for many a Q is a better option. I have an M10-P, M10-M and a Q2. 24/35/50/75mm lenses on the Ms and that suits me fine.

[mekener]

I only use the Visoflex with my 21mm on nature trips for landscapes when I also have a backpack, tripod vs... For regular daily use and travel I carry a 50, a 28 and a spare battery in a small bag. I have a 90mm I rarely use for my kids school concerts and the likes. Other than that I really find the 90mm unenjoyable on the m11, I imagine a longer focal length would be more horrific, at least for me.

[WvE]

I would recommend keeping your M10's. The M10 series and the SL2(-s) are the cameras where Leica got it right. The Visoflex is a fiddly thing, and not up to Leica standards, certainly if you are used to the EVF of the SL.   

[Max EPR]

I sold my Visoflex 2. My M11 uses 21,28,35,50 & 75 lenses. I found that I just did not use the Visoflex. I could always use Live View. Finally, I did not like the additional height the Visoflex gave the M11. 

[JoshuaR]

Thanks for these replies. I don't think I've ever seen such unanimity on the forum!

[lct]

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Edited October 9, 2024 by lct

[Derbyshire Man]

43 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Visoflex is very much like a noctilux. Everybody wants one, then gets one, then either sells it or does not use it at all.

I've got one and have hardly used it with my M11M and M11P. However, with an M11D and an enjoyment of low light photography I suspect I may become somewhat more acquainted with it! It's certainly packed for my next trip.

[JoshuaR]

What surprises me is that the Visoflex is not being used for telephoto. I have no real need for the SL2-S EVF even with my (f/1.2) Noctilux. But I do find that I want an EVF for 90mm and 135mm. I thought the M11 had stabilization of some kind to help with the longer lenses, too.

[hdmesa]

21 minutes ago, JoshuaRothman said:

What surprises me is that the Visoflex is not being used for telephoto. I have no real need for the SL2-S EVF even with my (f/1.2) Noctilux. But I do find that I want an EVF for 90mm and 135mm. I thought the M11 had stabilization of some kind to help with the longer lenses, too.

The M11 has digital stabilization to keep the view in the EVF steadier provided you use a 6-bit coded lens, or if uncoded, you manually select a lens profile so the camera knows the focal length attached. But there is no stabilization of the captured image.

[JoshuaR]

21 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

The M11 has digital stabilization to keep the view in the EVF steadier provided you use a 6-bit coded lens, or if uncoded, you manually select a lens profile so the camera knows the focal length attached. But there is no stabilization of the captured image.

Ah! Thank you for the clarification. I hadn’t properly understood this.

[Tailwagger]

Color me confused. 

I have an M10-R. I have an M11. Both run around with Visoflexes attached (as did the M10 and M240 that preceded them).  Theres no need to buy an M11, beyond a few more EVF pixels that the M11 provides.  Buy a used V2 and give it a try with your current Ms. If its a fail sell it. If not consider whether an M11 is a worthwhile upgrade.

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[JoshuaR]

48 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Color me confused. 

I have an M10-R. I have an M11. Both run around with Visoflexes attached (as did the M10 and M240 that preceded them).  Theres no need to buy an M11, beyond a few more EVF pixels that the M11 provides.  Buy a used V2 and give it a try with your current Ms. If its a fail sell it. If not consider whether an M11 is a worthwhile upgrade.

Indeed, your approach is the rational one. I'm going to go make my way to a Leica store, with my 135mm, and try out the Visoflex on both my M10-R and an M11, and see what I think.