Harman Phoenix Colour Negative 200 ISO daylight film - anyone tried it yet

[wlaidlaw]

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Has anyone tried the new Harman (Ilford) Phoenix colour negative film yet. If it is what they claim, it could be a good alternative to Ektra, which is getting very expensive. 

Wilson

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[TomB_tx]

I tried one roll and processed myself along with a roll of Ektra. Phoenix does not yet have the usual orange mask like other color negative films, and that messed up a lot while scanning on my Epson V850 with Epson Scan in auto mode. Some shots scanned fine, reasonable bright color, etc. Most did not scan well, so it likely need special scanner settings (although Harman said to just put Epson Scan in full auto.) I'll try my second roll with commercial processing and see if that works better.

[frame-it]

6 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

Has anyone tried the new Harman (Ilford) Phoenix colour negative film yet. If it is what they claim, it could be a good alternative to Ektra, which is getting very expensive. 

Wilson

might help >

 

[jakontil]

5 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

I tried one roll and processed myself along with a roll of Ektra. Phoenix does not yet have the usual orange mask like other color negative films, and that messed up a lot while scanning on my Epson V850 with Epson Scan in auto mode. Some shots scanned fine, reasonable bright color, etc. Most did not scan well, so it likely need special scanner settings (although Harman said to just put Epson Scan in full auto.) I'll try my second roll with commercial processing and see if that works better.

The way he scanned is fine and i can confirm this film shot at 100-125 and scanned home with NLP converted is probably the way right now 

[jakontil]

Shot during overcast day last year, im looking forward to getting the 120 format

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[hansvons]

14 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

If it is what they claim, it could be a good alternative to Ektra, which is getting very expensive. 

Phoenix is an experimental film (that’s what Ilford says) with good skin tones and ridiculously steep gamma. It surely is not an Ektar replacement.

The best ways to shoot colour without experimenting and with sufficient predictability within a meaningful budget is either to shoot Kodak Gold (much better than often people think) or go the cinema route and buy 3rd party-rolled Vision3 stock with the anti-halation layer intact (not Cinestill). That, however, means home dev. But it helps the budget tremendously and isn’t hard to do with the same or even better results compared to the average lab.

That said, I wouldn’t change a fruitful workflow in my photography because consistency is key for artistic development (until you hit a glass ceiling and things need a shakeup). Maybe you can safe money by preparing your shoots better, basically anything that helps the keeper rate.

[wlaidlaw]

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26 minutes ago, hansvons said:

Phoenix is an experimental film (that’s what Ilford says) with good skin tones and ridiculously steep gamma. It surely is not an Ektar replacement.

The best ways to shoot colour without experimenting and with sufficient predictability within a meaningful budget is either to shoot Kodak Gold (much better than often people think) or go the cinema route and buy 3rd party-rolled Vision3 stock with the anti-halation layer intact (not Cinestill). That, however, means home dev. But it helps the budget tremendously and isn’t hard to do with the same or even better results compared to the average lab.

That said, I wouldn’t change a fruitful workflow in my photography because consistency is key for artistic development (until you hit a glass ceiling and things need a shakeup). Maybe you can safe money by preparing your shoots better, basically anything that helps the keeper rate.

Unfortunately my home developing days are pretty much behind me other than the very occasional B&W 35mm using hydro-quinone free Rodinal in my Rondinax daylight tank. When I first started with my father in his darkroom in the early 1950s ( darkroom originally built in the attic of the family house by my grandfather, after he bought his Leica Model 2 Type D in 1935, which I I still have), using gloves was pretty much unheard of. I carried on this way until the 1970s until I found I was coming out of a darkroom with my hands and arms itching like mad, with red blotches all over them (hives). I had sensitised myself to hydro-quinone, so nowadays can only use HQ free developers like Rodinal and I don't think Rodinal is a great developer, accentuating grain and messing about with gamma. I even have to be careful touching freshly processed film or prints.

For those and other reasons, I am going to stick with Ektra and Ultramax for outdoor use and Portra for indoor. E100 is a great film but you need an accurate exposure meter either in your camera or hand, as I find it has quite narrow latitude. I use to send off all my films to Peak Imaging but sadly they are no more. I use Labo-Photon in Toulouse when I am at my French house, who are good but glacially slow and after I get back to the UK, I am going to give Harman a go for B&W. Film Safe in the UK also have a good reputation but have not tried them yet.

There is nobody local to me in East Sussex who I have found to be any good. The so-called professional company in Brighton, ruined three irreplaceable 120 films, I had taken at a special classic yachting event in St Tropez, where all three of the remaining huge 1930s J Class racing yachts, Shamrock V, Endeavour and Velsheda, were present. All three films came out looking like a wet November in Scotland in shades of Khaki, rather than sunny August days in St Tropez and they scratched two of the films. They claimed it must have been the camera, so I went and shot another roll with the same camera, my Rolleiflex 3.5 Planar F TLR and had it developed by Peak Imaging and it came out perfectly. 

Wilson

[LocalHero1953]

4 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

I use to send off all my films to Peak Imaging but sadly they are no more. I use Labo-Photon in Toulouse when I am at my French house, who are good but glacially slow and after I get back to the UK, I am going to give Harman a go for B&W. Film Safe in the UK also have a good reputation but have not tried them yet.

I find AG Photographic reliable and quick for colour processing. Sadly they now don't do 4x5.

[wlaidlaw]

1 minute ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I find AG Photographic reliable and quick for colour processing. Sadly they now don't do 4x5.

I have bought film from them but have not tried them for processing yet. 

Wilson

[hansvons]

Hi Wilso, sad to hear that your J-Class shots got botched. They are unbelievable witnesses of long-gone times. In the area where I sail, we have a William Fife 8mR (kind of a miniature 14m J-Class boat) with an extraordinary race history. In a breeze, they are still fast sailing machines with an unmatched regal dignity.

The only advice I have on offer for regular negative and exposure is to rate the EI one stop lower. That improves the IQ in 99% of the cases. Negative loves light.

BW developers: if you haven't tried Xtol yet, give it a shot. It’s vitamin C-based and relatively nontoxic, plus it is a compensating, fine-grain developer with good acuity while keeping the speed. However, high-latitude films like HP5 profiteer from a mild push in Xtol.

Edited September 6, 2024 by hansvons

[wlaidlaw]

27 minutes ago, hansvons said:

Hi Wilso, sad to hear that your J-Class shots got botched. They are unbelievable witnesses of long-gone times. In the area where I sail, we have a William Fife 8mR (kind of a miniature 14m J-Class boat) with an extraordinary race history. In a breeze, they are still fast sailing machines with an unmatched regal dignity.

The only advice I have on offer for regular negative and exposure is to rate the EI one stop lower. That improves the IQ in 99% of the cases. Negative loves light.

BW developers: if you haven't tried Xtol yet, give it a shot. It’s vitamin C-based and relatively nontoxic, plus it is a compensating, fine-grain developer with good acuity while keeping the speed. However, high-latitude films like HP5 profiteer from a mild push in Xtol.

Robbe and Berking in Germany have an 8mr for sale at the moment, Petán, built in Spain to the William Fife design. Price - a snip at €95,000. Makes an M11 look cheap. 

Wilson

 

[hansvons]

9 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

Makes an M11 look cheap.

Haven’t looked at the ad yet, but I’d say a proper, well-maintained 8mR for 100k is not overpriced and way more desirable than an M11.

I always wanted one of these but after owning a mahogany cold-molded 1-ton, I learned what a wooden boat requires in maintainance. And now add 3 more meters, 8 more tons, an uncountable number of planks, rivets and whatnot, not to mention the wooden rig. Quite a sobering outlook. 

 

[wlaidlaw]

2 hours ago, hansvons said:

Haven’t looked at the ad yet, but I’d say a proper, well-maintained 8mR for 100k is not overpriced and way more desirable than an M11.

I always wanted one of these but after owning a mahogany cold-molded 1-ton, I learned what a wooden boat requires in maintainance. And now add 3 more meters, 8 more tons, an uncountable number of planks, rivets and whatnot, not to mention the wooden rig. Quite a sobering outlook. 

 

I used to sail on a 6 metre and help with its upkeep, which put me off wood boats for life and at my age (78) and lack of mobility, a sailing boat is just not me any more. 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

Harman say in their advert received by email for Phoenix today "Our first ever colour film". They have not looked in their current 35 mm products catalogue as there they would have found Ilfocolour 400 in both instant cameras and 35mm, which has been around for donkey's years and in the past there was Ilfochrome but maybe that is best forgotten. 

Wilson

Edited September 9, 2024 by wlaidlaw

[Anbaric]

I think the current 35mm Ilfocolor stuff is rebadged Wolfen or something, and doesn't have anything to do with Harman. Harman, despite being the 'real Ilford', have to licence the Ilford name for their B&W films from Ilford Imaging Europe, but don't have the rights to use it for colour. I think the old Ilfochrome film you could buy in the 1980s was also rebadged, perhaps Konica/Sakura at one point?

[wlaidlaw]

The Swiss company Ilford Imaging I believe is the company responsible for their excellent print paper and printer profiles. I really use nothing except Ilford print paper.

Wilson 

[erl]

I have just a 35mm roll of Phoenix, which I cut in half to spread my testing. As promised by Harman, the film is very grainy, very temperamental and of course no substitute foe anything we currently use. I also reckon it is not exactly sharp, but that could be a consequence of the high grain. I have also managed to corner four rolls of 120 Phoenix, yet to arrive.

In general terms, I would describe it initially as looking through a dirty window. I am well qualified to compare that as my windows are always dirty, so I know what that looks like.

Vigorous adjustment of the colour sliders will bring the 'normal' appearance of colours close to reality, but I don't know if that is the intended purpose of the film. The direct scanner colours are very warm/brown, which can appeal to some, hence the 'antique' description currently given by Harman. To put the kindest possible take on it, I could say the overall effect is very painterly. I intend to experiment further with that concept.

The images I have attached were shot on a Leica M6 & various lenses. I processed the first half of the film in Tetenal chemistry. The second half in the new Ilford C-41 (made in Japan) because My Tetenal chemistry is all finished.

Scanning was on my Nikon 8000, because my 5000 is currently in for service.

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[david strachan]

Good tests Erl.

An interesting film, perhaps a bit like older film.  High contrast and very blue.

Pretty gritty and noisy. But I've found fast films often don't scan, or reproduce well on the net.  The grain often gets huge.

Thanks for the results, cheers.

Edited September 30, 2024 by david strachan

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[erl]

10 minutes ago, david strachan said:

Good tests Erl.

An interesting film, perhaps a bit like older film.  High contrast and very blue.

Pretty gritty and noisy. But I've found fast films often don't scan, or reproduce well on the net.  The grain often gets huge.

Thanks for the results, cheers.

In actual fact, the film scans as very warm yellow/brown. In the examples above, I have attempted to achieve a 'normal' colour balance, but I think there is a measure of crossover. Any excessive blue I think is my attempt at 'balance'.

[erl]

Since posting my samples, I have printed the Beach shot up to A2 to see how the grain and other artefacts perform. The result is interesting. Definite grain that  reduces sharppness and gives an overall 'impressionist' effect. I intend to experiment with this further, when my 120 rolls arrive.