Anyone still buying into/investing in the S system at this point?

[tom0511]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

vor 19 Stunden schrieb Quarterpounder:

No need to become defensive. Threat title is "Anyone still buying into/investing in the S system at this point?"

So far, the "in favour of buying one" replies largely came from people who already own one, and/or with very vague "pros", e.g. "The S and its lenses are heavy and perform better image-wise IMO." Better than what?

Maybe you should change the thread title to: „ why I believe the S system is not worth buying at this point from someone who has never used it doubting experience from people who do use it“

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[BernardC]

7 hours ago, HuntingSand said:

In the case of the S system specifically, both camera bodies and lenses have historically been affected by failures, which means the risks are actually not unknowns.

You can email Leica to find-out if any specific body or lens has been serviced. There is no indication that the sensor corrosion issue, or the lens motor gear issue, will return after the initial fix. We probably would have heard about it here if there was a concern.

That's not to say that you won't have any issues in the future. It's a mechanically complex system. All-in-all though, my has held-up better than a Canon system at a similar age.

[HuntingSand]

vor 48 Minuten schrieb BernardC:

You can email Leica to find-out if any specific body or lens has been serviced. There is no indication that the sensor corrosion issue, or the lens motor gear issue, will return after the initial fix. We probably would have heard about it here if there was a concern.

That's not to say that you won't have any issues in the future. It's a mechanically complex system. All-in-all though, my has held-up better than a Canon system at a similar age.

I was speaking in general terms. My 006 has undergone sensor replacement about five years ago and is showing no new signs of corrosion, and my Leica S lenses have updated AF motors. Knock on wood, things should be fine for a while. No issues with my 007. I am looking to add an S3 body in 2025, probably in exchange for the 7. Like most folk here, I am running multiple systems for multiple applications, so the amount of stress on the old S system these days is deliberate and usually quite measured. 

[Jeff S]

21 hours ago, Quarterpounder said:

"The S and its lenses are heavy and perform better image-wise IMO." Better than what?

You’ve seemed to ignore comments specifically comparing the S to an SL and/or specifically mentioning “smoother tonal transitions,” “improved colors,” “sharpness fall-off,” etc. There are also many arguments regarding the pros and cons of “larger format” cameras that most will already know. Those who print (especially large) might be aware of some benefits. 
 

As usual, a better way to answer many gear related questions IMO is to try the gear using one’s actual personal workflow and output.  The rest is just forum entertainment.

Jeff

Edited December 25, 2024 by Jeff S

[ynp]

17 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

Yes I am planning to replace all C645 lenses with the counter offers from Leica S.

I am not sure that I will be willing to part with my Contax 645 80mm, 55mm and 120mm. Obviously, the Leica S lenses are optically better and optimized for the sensor. Still, even the Distagon 45 mm is charming nearly wide open. 

Edited December 25, 2024 by ynp

[Jeff S]

6 minutes ago, Quarterpounder said:

It's ok. If you say that the S camrras have “smoother tonal transitions,” “improved colors,” or a better “sharpness fall-off” compared to a SL3, so be it. A shame that Leica decided to bin it, maybe all the photographers out there are mere ignorants...

I didn’t say it;  others here answered your question with those words, giving their opinion.  Your opinion is worth the same. Forum entertainment.

Jeff

[Jeff S]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

7 minutes ago, Quarterpounder said:

so I am going to beliebe you, and others. 

Again, I offered no opinion. If I had the same question, I’d demo the gear and answer it, based on my own needs and assessment. (I did just that for a week with the S006 many years ago.)

Jeff

[LocalHero1953]

 

1 hour ago, Quarterpounder said:

Well, I know nothing about the S system

Even after 5 pages here, plus many other threads in this forum alone, including these 275 pages? 😲

It was the images that convinced me I want one, even if I [can't/won't/would get into trouble if I tried to] pay for it. I would keep the SL2-S, and use the S for different subject matter.

Edited December 25, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[Einst_Stein]

2 hours ago, ynp said:

I am not sure that I will be willing to part with my Contax 645 80mm, 55mm and 120mm. Obviously, the Leica S lenses are optically better and optimized for the sensor. Still, even the Distagon 45 mm is charming nearly wide open. 

Neither will I. I will keep C645 lenses dedicated for my C645 camera, and use S lenses on S camera. 

[Einst_Stein]

42 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

 

Even after 5 pages here, plus many other threads in this forum alone, including these .

That is typical of Sauna Beach people. 

[Pieter12]

2 hours ago, Einst_Stein said:

That is typical of Sauna Beach people. 

Sauna Beach?

[irenedp]

my 5 cents: 

i bought an S2 about 7 years back to have a backup to the main camera I was using then for work, a Fuji GFX 100. The reason I did so was that it was really cheap, had the sensor changed, and I had experienced the CCD color with my M9. I really like it, but now rarely take it out.

Currently I work with  a Phase One XF and an S3. The S3 was bought new and a bargain as both the dealer and I knew that it had been discontinued. I got it because I needed a backup camera when I travel for work.  

Comparisons: The S lenses are excellent, very close to Phase One’s Schneiders. They are sharper and have better bokeh than Fuji lenses. The camera is very similar to the S2 and has the advantage of liveview. I had sharpness issues with the S2 due to difficulty focusing, and those are gone with the S3.  If i had to decide between the S3 and the Phase I would choose the latter. It is superior in all respects for my kind of work -shooting landscape, architecture or doing editorial portraits with a tripod-, but is much heavier and requires the tripod. If I had to choose between the S3 and the GFX I would get the S3. The image quality is better, the color is better, but I don’t value much the image stabilization because I don’t need it. Between the S3 and the 100 MP Hasselblad I would have doubts  I am invested in the S system, but if I started from scratch I would try the Hasselblad before deciding (it was not available when I bought the S3)  

I also keep a Nikon D850 and an APSC Fuji from when I did events. The Fuji is now in the display cabinet. in the rare case that I do an event, I use the 850 and my daughter’s Z9. They are much better suited for that kind of work -or nature, or sports- and I would always choose them for that. 

So maybe a first decision is whether you need a medium format or a full frame, and also if you need a stabilized camera, and one that can do 30 fps -or that does not matter much-.  Once you have decided your specification, which should fit closely your kind of work, and also your restrictions, you can choose the best camera. 

We cannot put the cart before the horse. 

Edited December 26, 2024 by irenedp

[davidmknoble]

@irenedp, great perspective.

I have used the S since the release of the S007 (and have the S3 as well).  I also have used for the past year the Hasselblad X2D (but only with the older lenses, the newer lenses are horrible for landsacpe work because of field curvatures, focus breather and host of things that make it hard to stop down a little and get everything in focus).

From a medium format perspective, the X2D has outstanding color and tonal graduations.  To keep that incredible color you have to use the H Phocus app which has some shortcomings.  Interestingly, the 35-70 zoom in the Hasselblad line is a fantastic lens where the Leica 30-90 is ok.  The X2D is pretty strong, but the weather sealing is no where near the S system.  It is fine for most applications, but I would not take it out in more severe weather (rain, snowing, hurricane end on the coast) whereas I have had the S system out in all those conditions and lightly rinsed it off after each.

From a sensor perspective, the Leica M11 and SL3 are the first I have seen that rival the S system in terms of color.  They are both 60mp cameras that line up with the S3, meaning the S3 still has larger pixel wells and gathers light nuances a little better. I think the SL APO primes are better than the S primes, but the 24-90 and 90-280 are in the same camp.

I have collected a host of CS lenses in the last year to experiment more with the central shutter, which is all the Hasselblad has. I, for one, have been really happy to collect some of the lenses I did not have a prices I was willing to pay and I have had great service from Leica Germany getting CLA’s on the those lenses.  I did not buy lenses without the new AF motor.  I even got a great deal on the 120 APO T/S lens which opens up some additional things to try.

I use both the X2D and the S3 on the coast, and they have different strengths, the X2D being mirrorless and having stabilization like the SL system, but the S3/S007 being super robust and reliable with great output.  I could make either work in normal conditions, and both have different strengths.

[Jon Warwick]

6 hours ago, irenedp said:

 If I had to choose between the S3 and the GFX I would get the S3. The image quality is better, the color is better, but I don’t value much the image stabilization because I don’t need it.

It’s an interesting view, and perhaps ties in with my view of my GFX100 and M11 (and also SL3) that I’ve tested closely together by shooting an identical scene on tripod and printing to 45-50” wide, as well as possibly tying in to David’s comment that “From a sensor perspective, the Leica M11 and SL3 are the first I have seen that rival the S system in terms of color”.

From my perspective, I had really assumed my GFX100 would show a notable difference in color nuances and resolution vs the 60mp full frame cameras, but i personally find it a challenge to see, even at 45-50” wide print size. I cannot explain it. Maybe something to do quality of the lenses, and / or way they respectively tuned the sensor and its color filter array? I often see more bite in the images and more color tone differentiation with the M11 / SL3, which is a bit perplexing vs what I’d assumed would be the case with the medium format GFX. I can’t comment on the S3 or Phase, given I’ve not tried either properly.

Most of my work is done on a tripod, so it’s not as though I benefit often from IBIS with the GFX either. And I often use the Visoflex on the M11 too for the histogram. All in all, I’m contemplating why I don’t just sell the GFX and stick with the M11.

Edited December 26, 2024 by Jon Warwick

[Slender]

I for one intend to jump into S with 35-70-120.... maybe 24/45/100 if lucky or it work for me. I have M10R and SL2 currently.

The thing I am not sure of is either save money with S007 or wait a bit more for S3 to come down further on price.... not sure how much the S3 betters the S007 with the current price gap second hand (around 3K£ for S007 in the UK... 8/9K£ for S3...)

[Pieter12]

I am headed to Death Valley at the end of the week. In addition to taking a film camera (in reality too many cameras), I will be taking an S. I opted for the S 006 over the S3 because the color is spectacular without adjustments and there should be plenty of light so I wouldn't need high ISO. I have yet to use Live View for anything and I don't shoot video.

[Einst_Stein]

33 minutes ago, Slender said:

I for one intend to jump into S with 35-70-120.... maybe 24/45/100 if lucky or it work for me. I have M10R and SL2 currently.

The thing I am not sure of is either save money with S007 or wait a bit more for S3 to come down further on price.... not sure how much the S3 betters the S007 with the current price gap second hand (around 3K£ for S007 in the UK... 8/9K£ for S3...)

I have S3. I paid about 2x of S007. I paid the difference by saving on something else, so it does not hurt me very much.

However, practically,  my eyes don’t see IQ difference. Yes, S3 has higher MPs and claimed better red channel. I guess it takes a photographer with professional and keen eyes and excellent PS skill to make sense out of the difference. 

[Tirpitz666]

Aren't S3 colors straight out of camera more "006-ish" than the 007? At least this is what is looks to me when I apply the Red Dot Forum Lightroom presets of the respective cameras, the S3 one is usually much more akin the 006, while the 007 looks quite different (and usually the less likeable for me). It would make sense that Leica tweaked the S3 that way, since almost everyone seems to have historically raved about 006 color rendition vs the 007 no?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Slender]

@Einst_Stein and @Tirpitz666 sounds a bit like what Leica sort of did with the M10R vis-a-vis the M9 heritage, or least the perception of it, right? I shoot for a living, so I can make due to learn new ways to tweak a camera color to my liking pretty good.... but of course since rumors has it S3 and M10R uses the same sensor base it would make life easier...

I just heard the S007 keeps a slight advantage in DR at lower iso (also the persisting runors it was a 16bit camera vs 14 for S3)... whilst S3 takes the edge at higher ISO.... If it wasnt 3x the price I would defo get the more recent body...

@Pieter12 @irenedp  @Einst_Stein @Tirpitz666  Would anyone care to send me some DNG of any cameras (s006, 007, s3) so I can have a play at it? The only samples I can find on the internet arent great to start with...

Cheers!

Edited January 7 by Slender

[Einst_Stein]

41 minutes ago, Tirpitz666 said:

Aren't S3 colors straight out of camera more "006-ish" than the 007? At least this is what is looks to me when I apply the Red Dot Forum Lightroom presets of the respective cameras, the S3 one is usually much more akin the 006, while the 007 looks quite different (and usually the less likeable for me). It would make sense that Leica tweaked the S3 that way, since almost everyone seems to have historically raved about 006 color rendition vs the 007 no?

I've heard M10 is more like M9 than M 240 too. I don't know what it means. I never use a photo straight out of camera anyway. May be people are looking for less tweak? Anyway, it is so minor to me, personally.  

I also have Hasselblad SF39 digital back on Contax 645. It is straight CCD. Its raw color rendition is somewhat less vivid, better or worse depends how you like it. It has never been a point to me. 

Edited January 7 by Einst_Stein