Earlier corrupted file post and response from Leica - advice needed SL3

[ALScott]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Orignal post: 

 

Before anybody says it... this had absolutely nothing to do with the battery swapping issue.  The files weren't missing but were corrupted.

I posted a little while ago about some corrupted files and then did some testing and seemed to narrow down my issue to the USB-C cable that came with the ProGrade reader as the issue.  I could only reproduce any issue when I used that cable.  Did not get any bad files when connecting camera directly or when using the reader with the Leica supplied cable.  Just in case, I reached out to Leica prior to testing and sent them some files to review and this was the answer I got back today: "Unfortunately, it looks possible that there could be something awry with your camera’s main board or imaging board. Please send your camera in for service mentioning both our correspondence and that you sent me DNGs."

I have a huge trip to Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons planned for 9/27 and am worried I may not get it back in time.  Do you guys think I should even send it in based on my own test results with the cable?  When I originally posted the above there were several members that seemed to have the same type of issues with various cables and readers.

Edited July 26, 2024 by ALScott

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jaapv]

I would wait and see whether the cure holds. It is virtually certain that you won't get the camera back in time. From Leica's response it is clear that they don't really know what the problem might be and if you solution works...

At any rate, with or without this issue, make sure that you have adequate backup on such a trip.

[frame-it]

22 minutes ago, ALScott said:

 

I reached out to Leica prior to testing and sent them some files to review and this was the answer I got back today: "Unfortunately, it looks possible that there could be something awry with your camera’s main board or imaging board. Please send your camera in for service mentioning both our correspondence and that you sent me DNGs."

I have a huge trip to Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons planned for 9/27 and am worried I may not get it back in time.  Do you guys think I should even send it in based on my own test results with the cable?  When I originally posted the above there were several members that seemed to have the same type of issues with various cables and readers.

so they may or may not know what the actual problem is, but their simple solution is to change the electronics of the camera!

that in itself is a hint, that they know there is a possible hardware issue, which they keep trying to patch up with firmware fixes...

i say hardware issue because they wanna change the hardware...

i say "patch up" because for other issues they released a firmware to "fix" a software issue to use the hardware in a certain way

makes total sense to send it in and get another camera temporarily to use for the trip

Edited July 26, 2024 by frame-it

[ALScott]

17 minutes ago, frame-it said:

so they may or may not know what the actual problem is, but their simple solution is to change the electronics of the camera!

that in itself is a hint, that they know there is a possible hardware issue, which they keep trying to patch up with firmware fixes...

i say hardware issue because they wanna change the hardware...

i say "patch up" because for other issues they released a firmware to "fix" a software issue to use the hardware in a certain way

makes total sense to send it in and get another camera temporarily to use for the trip

I am not thrilled but did not intend to start a Leica bashing thread as I have no interest in that nor does it serve any purpose for my current issue.  I am simply asking for advice from those more experienced in this area than myself.  They (Leica) did not say "change the hardware"  nowhere in my post nor there response did it say or even hint at that.  They said, "send your camera in for service" which could be many things.  

I am going to work hard this weekend to reproduce the problem and if I can't I think I will move forward with the assumption it was the cable alone.  It does make me really want to have some kind of backup.

[frame-it]

15 minutes ago, ALScott said:

 They (Leica) did not say "change the hardware"  nowhere in my post nor there response did it say or even hint at that.

 

1 hour ago, ALScott said:

"Unfortunately, it looks possible that there could be something awry with your camera’s main board or imaging board.

that IS hardware.

its not leica bashing, its about pointing out they they obviously don't know what the issues are, but simply change the board inside [hardware]

then they probably analyze the board with its current firmware to identify the problem, and later they will probably release a firmware update to fix things, as they have done for some issues already.

[ALScott]

I know it's hardware but I was just pointing out they did not say "change it."  I realize that's probably what it would mean but maybe not.  You can do all kinds of things to boards without removing them.  I would not be happy about that and hope more testing will bear it out.

[Luke_Miller]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Possibly a bad USB-C cable can produce results that are similar to a defective main board.  If the issue were the main board all cables would likely show the corruption.  I think your camera is OK.

[Stuart Richardson]

9 hours ago, ALScott said:

Orignal post: 

 

Before anybody says it... this had absolutely nothing to do with the battery swapping issue.  The files weren't missing but were corrupted.

I posted a little while ago about some corrupted files and then did some testing and seemed to narrow down my issue to the USB-C cable that came with the ProGrade reader as the issue.  I could only reproduce any issue when I used that cable.  Did not get any bad files when connecting camera directly or when using the reader with the Leica supplied cable.  Just in case, I reached out to Leica prior to testing and sent them some files to review and this was the answer I got back today: "Unfortunately, it looks possible that there could be something awry with your camera’s main board or imaging board. Please send your camera in for service mentioning both our correspondence and that you sent me DNGs."

I have a huge trip to Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons planned for 9/27 and am worried I may not get it back in time.  Do you guys think I should even send it in based on my own test results with the cable?  When I originally posted the above there were several members that seemed to have the same type of issues with various cables and readers.

If you are looking for a backup, you can probably get a used S1R for a song these days. That would work natively with your lenses and still be a 47mp camera with a sharp sensor and multishot, so it would replicate the SL3 better than for example, an S5 series. Of course SL2's are also way under original retail now too and would be even more comparable.

[jaapv]

Just a thought: If you lock the card before testing you can use various cables and see whether it is the camera or the image transfer. 

[Photoworks]

12 hours ago, frame-it said:

so they may or may not know what the actual problem is, but their simple solution is to change the electronics of the camera!

that in itself is a hint, that they know there is a possible hardware issue, which they keep trying to patch up with firmware fixes...

i say hardware issue because they wanna change the hardware...

i say "patch up" because for other issues they released a firmware to "fix" a software issue to use the hardware in a certain way

makes total sense to send it in and get another camera temporarily to use for the trip

I'm afraid I have to disagree, that is the standard response when they can't test it. I had issues on various cameras, M and SL3, and that is what they offered, but I didn't send it in because I didn't think it applied. 

All my issues were fixed in firmware.

 

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, Photoworks said:

I'm afraid I have to disagree, that is the standard response when they can't test it. I had issues on various cameras, M and SL3, and that is what they offered, but I didn't send it in because I didn't think it applied. 

All my issues were fixed in firmware.

 

the firmware simply changes the way the hardware is used.

[beewee]

3 hours ago, frame-it said:

the firmware simply changes the way the hardware is used.

There’s a difference between a design flaw and a manufacturing flaw/fault. Both are hardware issues. The former requires a new design whereas the latter only requires a replacement with the same design. You seem to be implying the former.

Embedded electronics (cameras being one of those) are tricky to diagnose, even by those who designed them and sometimes software faults can manifest itself like a hardware fault. Without physical access to the device and being able to leverage diagnostic communication channels that can only be done with the physical unit, it’s a lot harder to fully diagnose and determine whether a hardware or (unknown) software fault exists. This is probably why Leica just simply defaults to a standard protocol of having people ship their cameras in. That way, they can fully diagnose the issue and, if needed, swap parts. But the first step of fully diagnosing does often require physical access to the unit, even if it’s ‘only’ a software issue.

[beewee]

Another perspective is that sometimes a hardware fault can be fully solved by software without having an impact on the final product’s performance through software workarounds. I know of some very bright engineers that work for some of the biggest names in technology that have done this on products which were shipped. I’ve heard of instances where a flaw in a chip from a third party component resulted in crashes but it only happens under very very specific conditions but it was a condition that could happen in the real world because of certain use cases. So a software fix was made to ensure that the chip that had a flaw was never put into such specific condition in the real-world and the fix did not impact the product’s functionality or performance for the user. The alternative ‘hardware’ fix would have been a new version of the chip that would take 1.5-2.5 years to update and manufacture, by which point the product would have been obsolete.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Here’s how I read it. You have occasionally corrupted files. Leica are not absolutely sure of the cause but the main board is responsible for getting data from the sensor and converting it to a DNG file. As a preemptive measure they’re going to change the board.

You seem to have found the actual cause , which is not the board. You are now going to try and *break* the files.

My best guess is there’s nothing wrong with your camera and Leica is motivated to do something, even if they’re not 100% sure what the issue is. They’re making an educated guess.

Try and break the files for a few days. Find that dodgy cable and see what happens. Try locking the card as suggested before copying. If you can’t break it let Leica know and move on. Maybe get the S1R as recommended, if you want. It’s basically an SL2 with different micro lenses.

Gordon

[frame-it]

6 hours ago, beewee said:

This is probably why Leica just simply defaults to a standard protocol of having people ship their cameras in. That way, they can fully diagnose the issue and, if needed, swap parts. But the first step of fully diagnosing does often require physical access to the unit, even if it’s ‘only’ a software issue.

yes, that was my point, its better to send it in, so that they analyse the fault whether its hardware or installed firmware

[frame-it]

6 hours ago, beewee said:

I’ve heard of instances where a flaw in a chip from a third party component resulted in crashes but it only happens under very very specific conditions but it was a condition that could happen in the real world because of certain use cases. So a software fix was made to ensure that the chip that had a flaw was never put into such specific condition in the real-world and the fix did not impact the product’s functionality or performance for the user. The alternative ‘hardware’ fix would have been a new version of the chip that would take 1.5-2.5 years to update and manufacture, by which point the product would have been obsolete.

nailed it

[Jim B]

On 7/26/2024 at 7:07 PM, ALScott said:

Orignal post: 

 

Before anybody says it... this had absolutely nothing to do with the battery swapping issue.  The files weren't missing but were corrupted.

I posted a little while ago about some corrupted files and then did some testing and seemed to narrow down my issue to the USB-C cable that came with the ProGrade reader as the issue.  I could only reproduce any issue when I used that cable.  Did not get any bad files when connecting camera directly or when using the reader with the Leica supplied cable.  Just in case, I reached out to Leica prior to testing and sent them some files to review and this was the answer I got back today: "Unfortunately, it looks possible that there could be something awry with your camera’s main board or imaging board. Please send your camera in for service mentioning both our correspondence and that you sent me DNGs."

I have a huge trip to Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons planned for 9/27 and am worried I may not get it back in time.  Do you guys think I should even send it in based on my own test results with the cable?  When I originally posted the above there were several members that seemed to have the same type of issues with various cables and readers.

It seems you have identified the problem, I wouldn’t send the camera in as the files are viewable in the camera. In all my years of digital shooting, I only had one card go bad and that was a Lexar, so I don’t buy them anymore. I never considered Prograde as a high end product, as they used to be the cheapest cards sold at the Dollar store. I mainly stuck with San Disk but in the last few years switched to Angel Birds.

I really like the Angel Birds and their card reader is nice and solid. I would definitely get some new cards and a new card reader for the trip. Unless, you are sure it’s just the card reader cable. If the cable is defective in some way and sending intermittent data, it’s perfectly reasonable to have corrupted files as a result.

Make sure you are properly ejecting the cards from the computer, especially if you are using an Apple Mac because not doing so most definitely can corrupt the files.

The workflow I would use for the trip is I would get two large capacity cards. Write files to both. Leave (1) card in the camera for the duration. Take out card (2) and copy the files to a note book or portable hard drive. I’m just not a fan of connecting the camera to anything, whether it’s Leica’s cables or not. I don’t charge that way or transfer images as I am over protective of my gear. 

Everyone approaches things differently, I hope this helps. Your trip sounds awesome!  Replace the cable,  do some testing at home so you are confident, and go and have a wonderful time!!!
 

 

[jonoslack]

On 7/27/2024 at 12:07 AM, ALScott said:

Orignal post: 

 

Before anybody says it... this had absolutely nothing to do with the battery swapping issue.  The files weren't missing but were corrupted.

I posted a little while ago about some corrupted files and then did some testing and seemed to narrow down my issue to the USB-C cable that came with the ProGrade reader as the issue.  I could only reproduce any issue when I used that cable.  Did not get any bad files when connecting camera directly or when using the reader with the Leica supplied cable.  Just in case, I reached out to Leica prior to testing and sent them some files to review and this was the answer I got back today: "Unfortunately, it looks possible that there could be something awry with your camera’s main board or imaging board. Please send your camera in for service mentioning both our correspondence and that you sent me DNGs."

I have a huge trip to Yellowstone and the Grand Tetons planned for 9/27 and am worried I may not get it back in time.  Do you guys think I should even send it in based on my own test results with the cable?  When I originally posted the above there were several members that seemed to have the same type of issues with various cables and readers.

HI There AL

when you had the corrupted files in LR were they okay on the camera still? ie if you re-downloaded them using the  card reader with the Leica cable or directly connected to the camera were they okay ? 

How many corrupted files were there?

I also saw a couple of corrupted files in the early days, but none since then - it might easily have been connecting to the camera using a different USB-C cable (but I never got to the bottom of it).

if I was in your position then I would do your checks using the Leica cable - and if you don't have any issues then go for it. 

It may be that Leica know something . . . . . . but it might just be a standard response based on some criteria . . . . 

Certainly I'm not aware of anything nasty like that

All the best

Jono

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[ALScott]

Well a bit of a new wrinkle in this situation after more tests.  First, I will go through what originally happened.

Originally, on vacation and shot pics, all on Lexar 128G Cf B card, and reviewed all multiple times in camera and all were fine, no issues.  I even connected to iPad and reviewed in Lr so everyone could easily see them but never imported them via Lr on iPad.

Got home and imported all into LrC via MacBook Pro with new ProGrade reader and cable, 88 of 299 photos from SL3 and Lexar Cf B were corrupted, none from Q3 and SanDisk SD card.  I put the Cf B card back into the SL3 to see if I could still see the photos and got error message "this file cannot be read." I bought recovery software and "recovered" all files except a few but the same ones still appeared corrupted with multi-colored horizontal lines, etc.  

July 5th I began testing import to LrC with all cards, Lexar SD and Cfe B along with SanDisk SD and Cfe B by directly connecting the camera to the MacBook and with ProGrade reader and cable as follows:  1. Direct connection of SL3 MacBook with Leica cable resulted in all files on all four cards were fine.  2. SD cards with SanDisk Reader I bought just for testing, resulted in both SD cards files were fine  3. ProGrade Reader with Leica cable resulted in all files on all four cards were fine  4. ProGrade Reader with ProGrade Cable resulted in LrC didn't even recognize the Lexar card or any files.  They weren't just corrupted but just did not appear at all.  Put the card back in the SL3 and it, again, gave the error message "this file cannot be read."  

After above I sent the email to Leica as a "just in case" and got back the response I shared above.  Then this weekend I shot some more for the purpose of more testing and only used the Lexar Cfe B card and every way I could import them went just fine, no files were affected in any way.  So now I feel like I am sort of no closer to an answer.  Although, I do have to think that it's not the camera as the only issue came with the Lexar card and ProGrade reader/cable.  Seemingly the only consistencies that may be causing an issue are the ProGrade Reader, its own cable and the Lexar card combination with the SL3.  I am going to ditch the Lexar and get some more cards and leave one in the camera as Jim B suggests.

Here is what the files look like.  Some are a tiny bit at the bottom, half way up but always on the long side, even when shot as a vertical.  Some have an overall tint but cutting out the info of the subject.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Photoworks]

most of the time it is a problem with transmission, connection, or affected card.

I don't see how it can be the camera after your results.

I have seen does errors over the years when importing directly into an external HDD, which could be the cable or the reader.

I now import into the main SSD of the computer and then do a backup to NAS.