Why I gave up on the Leica SL3

[StoneLeica24]

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I have found for my uses the SL3 is a very capable tool. I knew going into the purchase and fleshing out the system what it is and isn't. It isn't.. a fast action or long range tool for me. it is the "take time create something worth having camera". The one camera I shoot for kicking studio work and the "guilty pleasure for the love of creation" camera. My Nikons can handle events and fast action.

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[FlashGordonPhotography]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Hmmm... Most reviewers claim it is close to Canon and Nikon. Anyway this discussion is about the SL3, and if the Panasonic easily outperforms the Leica ( not my opinion, but of users that have both, I never claimed personal experience) I still wonder if pixel count is of influence on the Panaleica system. 

I have both. Actually all. S5ii, R5, A7R5, SL2, SL3. AFS is not worth the arguments. All are more than sufficient, lens dependant. In AFC the SL2 trails the SL3, which is slightly behind the S5ii. Slightly. It's not a significant difference. But it's there. They both have the same issues with foreground objects when tracking or in the recognition modes, which is the real problem. The Canon R5 is significantly faster but not always accurate. Sometimes it just jumps to the background for no apparent reason. Not often. But sometimes. The A7R5 is ahead of the rest by some margin. Incredible speed. Hangs on like an angry dog.

Except the S5ii, the big issue is readout speed. A camera like the Sony A1, A9, Nikon Z8/Z9 or Canon R5ii makes a mockery of these in AFC. If you really specialise in action these are the cameras to have. You do lose some file pliability. There's no free lunch here. The A1ii comes next week. I already have my order request in.

1 hour ago, Smogg said:

Definitely not close to Canon R5, different leagues

Agreed but I do find the Canon misses sometimes or jumps off the target in rare cases. Not as bad as the R7 though. I haven't tested the R5ii. It's supposed to be more sticky. I find the SL3 to be accurate, once it finds a target. Aquisition in AFC is poor though if there's anything closer in the focus area. But I didn't buy the SL3 thinking it was an action based camera. I have an A1 for that.

Gordon

[Cronilux]

@FlashGordonPhotography I currently own the following cameras:

2x Sony A7IV
1x Sony A7RV
1x Sony A7sIII
1x LUMIX S9
1x Leica SL2-S
1x Leica SL3
1x Leica M10-R
1x Leica M10-P
1x Leica Q
1x Leica Q2
1x Fuji X100T
I had a Leica Q3 for less than 6 month, cause I was expecting an big upgrade to the Q2 and was pretty disappointed to realise, that it is just a small improvement in the AF department. Even eye detection was not good and to disappoint here in comparison to the Q2 is realistically  pretty tough, since the Q2 is a joke with the people detection. Yet, I still love the Q2.

None of the Sonys nor the S9 need constant input to focus reliable and accurately. You can put all of them in AF-C with either a tracking or a flexible spot with a medium size. A custom button for eye/face detection and that’s basically all it needs. No need to switch constantly between several AF point settings or even manual corrections. They just work. 

If the SL3 would work in AF-C like the S9 I would have no complaints and the S9 is still far behind the A7IV or A7RV.

I don’t think those are far fetched expectations for the SL3 with the specs it has. Yet, it still can’t do it. Just read how many workarounds you need and how many features are half baked, yet. I don’t even think they will bring a firmware update for it, that upgrades the AF. 

Panasonic quickly delivered a new S9 firmware for the complaints people had. Video recording limits etc.

Your assumptions, that people who complain over the abilities of the SL3s AF, just had the wrong expectations are nonsense in my opinion. What else should one expect from a third generation mirrorless camera with the specs of the SL3? Tell me, I am all ears.

Trust me, I love my Leica gear and I am not hating around. I just wished Leica would put the foot to the floor and catch up faster, when it comes to their SL system. 

[JohnSantaF4]

I am curious why anyone would expect mediocre autofocus from a "state of the art, modern autofocus camera" from Lecia or anyone else at this super-premium price point? why wouldn't a buyer expect simply the best? 

[jaapv]

Each and every camera is a collection of compromises; the best -define it- means something different to everybody. Some features are more relevant than others, which varies by user - for my use and taste even fairly basic AF is sufficient  (I don't like the camera to run away with my choice of focal plane), as long as it is fairly accurate and not too slow, for others extreme responsiveness is essential, they demand the utmost convenience. 
What I do find important is that I can control/modify AF manually, and this is perfect on Leica by half-press and the positioning of the focus rings on Leica and some third-party lenses.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

1 hour ago, JohnSantaF4 said:

I am curious why anyone would expect mediocre autofocus from a "state of the art, modern autofocus camera" from Lecia or anyone else at this super-premium price point? why wouldn't a buyer expect simply the best? 

Best at what, exactly?

Build quality? 

File malleability?

User interface and menus?

AF?

Resolution?

Software compatibility?

Interface speed?

Lens performance?

Lens options?

Third party lens compatibility?

Manual Focus assistants?

Camera customisation?

Video specifications?

Weather sealing?

EVF magnification and optics?

IBIS?

Value for money?

Dynamic Range?

Colour?

Smart phone and tablet compatibility.

System Accessories?

Pick any camera available and I think we can all find a few places it’s not *simply the best*. If someone thinks the SL3 isn’t suitable, buy something else and stop whinging. There are plenty of people who think the SL3 is pretty much their ideal camera. If that’s not you, fine. Move on. But because it does not excel in the areas you think it should does not make it a bad camera. And I mean that for every camera currently available.

You can buy 10 Ford Rangers for the price of a Vanquish. Would you say the Aston Martin is better for hauling lumber? Do you think a Rolex is a better time keeper than an Apple Watch? Do you think a LV handbag holds stuff better than a canvas bag from the supermarket? It’s a daft argument. Comparing things based on price alone.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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2 hours ago, Cronilux said:

 

None of the Sonys nor the S9 need constant input to focus reliable and accurately. You can put all of them in AF-C with either a tracking or a flexible spot with a medium size. A custom button for eye/face detection and that’s basically all it needs. No need to switch constantly between several AF point settings or even manual corrections. They just work. 

 

I absolutely guarantee someone different would have no issues getting the images you claim the SL3 can’t. Almost instantly. Without any issues at all. They may even enjoy it bizarrely. I absolutely guarantee that there are photographers making incredible images in street and travel with the SL3, right now. And they’re doing it with a camera that’s near perfect as far as they’re concerned.

Sorry to be blunt. It’s you.

The issues you have with the SL3 for street and travel are you, not the camera. And that’s OK. I’ve used my A7R5/CR/1 as a daily carry when I travelled and loathed it. Too many small buttons in a small body. Dials that move seemingly by themselves. A few times it’s just stopped working in poor weather until it dries out. The damn thing just got in the way and what I wanted was less. Much less. That’s on me. Not the camera.  And that’s OK. I’m not slamming the A7R5 because it won’t bend to they way I want it to be. I recognise that for someone else the A7R5 might be just about perfect. It’s a technological marvel. I see it as a bag of compromises in handling, weather sealing and user interface. I still use it but would never take it out as a street or travel camera. Blech! But it’s not the cameras fault. It’s on me. I almost always take my SL3 over my A7R5 because the compromises of the SL3 matter less to me than the ones on the A7R5. YMMV. And that’s fine. But it isn’t the camera.

The S9 has no EVF, no IBIS and too few pixels. Never going to use it. Ever. Absolutely useless to me. Doesn’t mean I think it’s a bad camera. Just not the camera for *me*. And since you don’t use workarounds I suppose you use the same ISO on the S9 compared to your IBIS enabled A7R5?

*You* and the SL3 don’t get along. *You* aren’t prepared or enjoy using manual focus on the SL3. *You* don’t like the way the SL3 AF chooses its target. And *you* aren’t prepared to accept the workarounds required. Just ironic that you are for other cameras. Manually focusing is OK on the M10R but not a camera with AF? The SL3’s manual focus assist tools are great and it’s partly designed to work well with manual focus. Some use the SL3 only with manual focus lenses.

Your Sony’s have workarounds. What happens in heavy rain? Does people, animals and birds AF all work together? (they don’t). So what do you do if a good looking doggy becomes the subject while you’re in people face detect? Did you just use the Sony out of the box or did you spend some time setting it up the way *you* like it? The S9 didn’t just work. And they will never work for photographers that want a viewfinder or IBIS.

I do wonder what people think Leica were doing when the released the SL3? Do we think that some nice German lad who was tasked with the AF system went “f**k it, that’ll do?” Leica made these decisions deliberately. You guys think they failed. Reality is they didn’t have you in mind at all when they made the SL3. Everyone seems to forget Leica don’t make a single AF prime lens over 90mm. And you’re all expecting them to prioritise sports level AF? Hilarious. You don’t have to like it but it is what it is. Leicas priorities for AfC speed are low. Their priorities are build quality, image quality and UI. If you want AFC performance choose something else and take photos. Leica had a list of priorities, which they made pretty clear when the camera was released. Ultimate AF performance wasn’t on the list. People wanted the SL3 to be something it isn’t. Too bad. Move on.

And despite all this I wouldn’t miss any more shots with the SL3 than you would with your Sony. Go figure.

Gordon

p.s. This isn’t a personal attack on you. After 35years as a working photographer my single biggest irritation is anyone saying a camera *can’t*. It can and it will if you want it to. I’m more interested in finding out what a system can do rather than can’t. We get on differently with different stuff but there’s no camera that’s perfect for everybody. It’s the same when someone says *full frame* camera are better than m43. Aaaarrrggghhhh!

[Smogg]

The conclusion that emerges from the above is that there is no point in complaining about the shortcomings of the SL3, it is a great camera, provided that you also have a Sony A7RV or A1. Thus, the Sony is a must-have accessory for the SL3, like a strap or a spare battery. This is worth considering in the price when making a purchase decision. 😉

[geesbert]

I‘d rather say the conclusion is, performance wise you are not getting what you are paying for, there are better deals out there. But emotionally, which is often more important, it mght be well worth it. 

[Smogg]

4 minutes ago, geesbert said:

I‘d rather say the conclusion is, performance wise you are not getting what you are paying for, there are better deals out there. But emotionally, which is often more important, it mght be well worth it. 

Also an important aspect is the size of the letters LEICA😜

[Cronilux]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb FlashGordonPhotography:

 

I absolutely guarantee someone different would have no issues getting the images you claim the SL3 can’t. Almost instantly. Without any issues at all. They may even enjoy it bizarrely. I absolutely guarantee that there are photographers making incredible images in street and travel with the SL3, right now. And they’re doing it with a camera that’s near perfect as far as they’re concerned.

Sorry to be blunt. It’s you.

The issues you have with the SL3 for street and travel are you, not the camera. And that’s OK. I’ve used my A7R5/CR/1 as a daily carry when I travelled and loathed it. Too many small buttons in a small body. Dials that move seemingly by themselves. A few times it’s just stopped working in poor weather until it dries out. The damn thing just got in the way and what I wanted was less. Much less. That’s on me. Not the camera.  And that’s OK. I’m not slamming the A7R5 because it won’t bend to they way I want it to be. I recognise that for someone else the A7R5 might be just about perfect. It’s a technological marvel. I see it as a bag of compromises in handling, weather sealing and user interface. I still use it but would never take it out as a street or travel camera. Blech! But it’s not the cameras fault. It’s on me. I almost always take my SL3 over my A7R5 because the compromises of the SL3 matter less to me than the ones on the A7R5. YMMV. And that’s fine. But it isn’t the camera.

The S9 has no EVF, no IBIS and too few pixels. Never going to use it. Ever. Absolutely useless to me. Doesn’t mean I think it’s a bad camera. Just not the camera for *me*. And since you don’t use workarounds I suppose you use the same ISO on the S9 compared to your IBIS enabled A7R5?

*You* and the SL3 don’t get along. *You* aren’t prepared or enjoy using manual focus on the SL3. *You* don’t like the way the SL3 AF chooses its target. And *you* aren’t prepared to accept the workarounds required. Just ironic that you are for other cameras. Manually focusing is OK on the M10R but not a camera with AF? The SL3’s manual focus assist tools are great and it’s partly designed to work well with manual focus. Some use the SL3 only with manual focus lenses.

Your Sony’s have workarounds. What happens in heavy rain? Does people, animals and birds AF all work together? (they don’t). So what do you do if a good looking doggy becomes the subject while you’re in people face detect? Did you just use the Sony out of the box or did you spend some time setting it up the way *you* like it? The S9 didn’t just work. And they will never work for photographers that want a viewfinder or IBIS.

I do wonder what people think Leica were doing when the released the SL3? Do we think that some nice German lad who was tasked with the AF system went “f**k it, that’ll do?” Leica made these decisions deliberately. You guys think they failed. Reality is they didn’t have you in mind at all when they made the SL3. Everyone seems to forget Leica don’t make a single AF prime lens over 90mm. And you’re all expecting them to prioritise sports level AF? Hilarious. You don’t have to like it but it is what it is. Leicas priorities for AfC speed are low. Their priorities are build quality, image quality and UI. If you want AFC performance choose something else and take photos. Leica had a list of priorities, which they made pretty clear when the camera was released. Ultimate AF performance wasn’t on the list. People wanted the SL3 to be something it isn’t. Too bad. Move on.

And despite all this I wouldn’t miss any more shots with the SL3 than you would with your Sony. Go figure.

Gordon

p.s. This isn’t a personal attack on you. After 35years as a working photographer my single biggest irritation is anyone saying a camera *can’t*. It can and it will if you want it to. I’m more interested in finding out what a system can do rather than can’t. We get on differently with different stuff but there’s no camera that’s perfect for everybody. It’s the same when someone says *full frame* camera are better than m43. Aaaarrrggghhhh!

Bro, don’t make a fool out of yourself. I can get all the pictures I want with it, but it it’s just annoying to have old tech in such an expensive camera. I can easily work around all the flaws and still think it’s sad the camera can’t do, what other cameras with the same specs can.

And yes, Leica just has not the software yet, to compete with the biggest, when it comes to AF. Period. You can cry as much as you want, that won’t change the facts. 

How can someone argue about the short comings of the AF and mention manual focus in the same sentence? That’s hilarious. Yes, I enjoy manual focus on an M. Didn’t you talk about intended use?

BTW, „Mr. I know it all“ The S9 has the same IBIS as the S5II. It is incredible and you can easily vlog with it hand hold, while applying LUTs in real time. 

You are not better, than anyone else. You are just someone with severe GAS like a lot of us and you can’t take it, that someone dislikes some features of a camera you bought. You are on a very high horse, but make a fool out of yourself with your conclusions, that don’t even make sense. 

I am a professional photographer for a very long time now and make multi six figures every year with it. I am good. Really. I don’t have any hard feelings, but your attacks are laughable. 

[satijntje]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb FlashGordonPhotography:

The S9 has no EVF, no IBIS and too few pixels. Never going to use it. Ever. Absolutely useless to me. Doesn’t mean I think it’s a bad camera. Just not the camera for *me*. And since you don’t use workarounds I suppose you use the same ISO on the S9 compared to your IBIS enabled A7R5?

Your Sony’s have workarounds. What happens in heavy rain? Does people, animals and birds AF all work together? (they don’t). So what do you do if a good looking doggy becomes the subject while you’re in people face detect? Did you just use the Sony out of the box or did you spend some time setting it up the way *you* like it? The S9 didn’t just work. And they will never work for photographers that want a viewfinder or IBIS.

 

For IBIS, you are 100% wrong sir.
The S9 has definitively a fantastic IBIS.
My family members (and myself too) love this small camera and it’s the most used camera in our family I can assure you.
And 24MP is sufficient for our printing as we do not print billboard size.

 

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[JTLeica]

Wow this thread really has gone off the rails.

Pointless arguing about which autofocus is better… if you need superb continuous autofocus with great tracking, currently the SL3 isn’t the perfect choice, however, looking at the thousands of images posted daily to this forum I rarely ever, see anything that needs that.

I can’t speak for Leica, but I would be pretty stunned if in their notes they wanted to aim this at sports photographers and people shooting fast action. The AF on the SL3 is absolutely more than enough to shoot street photography.

If someone has 10 cameras how are you supposed to master one of them?

Edited November 12, 2024 by JTLeica

[JTLeica]

7 hours ago, JohnSantaF4 said:

I am curious why anyone would expect mediocre autofocus from a "state of the art, modern autofocus camera" from Lecia or anyone else at this super-premium price point? why wouldn't a buyer expect simply the best? 

Honestly, how is is possible to be the ‘best’ at everything?

Youd like the best build quality.

Best weather sealing with an IP rating.

Arguably now the best sensor going, with incredible file quality.

Without hesitation the best lenses in the APO summicrons.

Gorgeous ergonomics.

The nicest menus and UI in the market.

The best residual value (%).

You also then want the best AF? And the best AI tracking? How is possible to overtake Sony who’ve been pushing those two things for a decade and are miles bigger than Leica?

 

 

Edited November 12, 2024 by JTLeica

[Smogg]

15 minutes ago, JTLeica said:

Honestly, how is is possible to be the ‘best’ at everything?

Youd like the best build quality.

Best weather sealing with an IP rating.

Arguably now the best sensor going, with incredible file quality.

Without hesitation the best lenses in the APO summicrons.

Gorgeous ergonomics.

The nicest menus and UI in the market.

The best residual value (%).

You also then want the best AF? And the best AI tracking? How is possible to overtake Sony who’ve been pushing those two things for a decade and are miles bigger than Leica?

 

 

I agree with many of the advantages you wrote about, but not with the ergonomics. Due to the lack of any protrusion on the back of the camera to support the thumb and/or its base, it is very uncomfortable to hold it with one hand, the hand quickly gets tired. The spinning knob on the left top is practically useless, except for ISO. Then why are there no ISO numbers on it?

[JTLeica]

21 minutes ago, Smogg said:

I agree with many of the advantages you wrote about, but not with the ergonomics. Due to the lack of any protrusion on the back of the camera to support the thumb and/or its base, it is very uncomfortable to hold it with one hand, the hand quickly gets tired. The spinning knob on the left top is practically useless, except for ISO. Then why are there no ISO numbers on it?

I actually find it supremely comfy. Coming from a GFX then Z7, similar in comfort to those. The 50s was probably my favourite for comfort due to the mounded grip.

However the dials are fine to me. Three main dials that can be changed in any order. The reason there’s no numbers is so you can customise to anything without any hard etching. 

Never really thought about the dials until now, though.

As mentioned, I feel this is a great landscape camera, the best in fact. A great studio, or wedding, events camera. In single point (pinpoint af) the focus is instant and reliable. I am not used to any Sony from the last 8 years, but realistically hardly anyone around needs that AF tech. Cool it’s there, just don’t expect it in every camera. It’s not in Pentax, or Fuji, Hass / GFX and people take timeless images with those as they do with Leica.

 

Edited November 12, 2024 by JTLeica

[Smogg]

15 minutes ago, JTLeica said:

I actually find it supremely comfy. Coming from a GFX then Z7, similar in comfort to those. The 50s was probably my favourite for comfort due to the mounded grip.

However the dials are fine to me. Three main dials that can be changed in any order. The reason there’s no numbers is so you can customise to anything without any hard etching. 

Never really thought about the dials until now, though.

As mentioned, I feel this is a great landscape camera, the best in fact. A great studio, or wedding, events camera. In single point (pinpoint af) the focus is instant and reliable. I am not used to any Sony from the last 8 years, but realistically hardly anyone around needs that AF tech. Cool it’s there, just don’t expect it in every camera. It’s not in Pentax, or Fuji, Hass / GFX and people take timeless images with those as they do with Leica.

 

I'm going to stick something convex on the back with double sided tape.

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[JTLeica]

47 minutes ago, Smogg said:

I'm going to stick something convex on the back with double sided tape.

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I am sure someone can made a cleve thumb support, I have seen some pretty ambitious ones.

You probably wouldnt want me to design it though🫣

[Smogg]

4 minutes ago, JTLeica said:

I am sure someone can made a cleve thumb support, I have seen some pretty ambitious ones.

You probably wouldnt want me to design it though🫣

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The thumb rest as you propose makes it difficult to quickly access the exposure compensation wheel. The thumb has to be moved away (risking dropping the camera) and carried over the protruding hook, which is not very convenient.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[LocalHero1953]

Leica's problem, partly self-inflicted I guess, is their prices. There's a thread of bitterness running through many posts complaining, not just about the SL3 here, but all other newly released Leicas for the last decade. 'With all the money I have, why can't I buy perfection?'. Would we still have the bitterness if Leicas cost less than a Sony? I doubt it.

Edited November 12, 2024 by LocalHero1953