What’s next with full frame sensors?

[o2mpx]

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Do we expect to see higher than 61mp sensors in the next gen? How close will it get to 100mp used by MF Fujis and HBs?

When/if the next iteration is close to 75mp, would it justify passing on MF and sticking with FF reduced weight and bulk?

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[costa43]

I recently read that Sony have developed a 247mp medium format sensor. A full frame one from the same silicon will be around 98mp I think. 

[frankchn]

Global shutter sensors will get better and will trickle down. It will eliminate the need for mechanical shutters while providing leaf shutter (or better) sync speeds.

Resolution will continue to get better. Sony supplies Fuji's 40 MP APS-C sensor, stretching that out to FF gets you a 90 MP sensor. MF will always have a resolution advantage -- the question is only at which point is it "enough". When FF sensors get to 90 MP, GFX and X-mount will probably end up with 150MP, PhaseOne might get the 250 MP sensor, etc...

I only see marginal improvements in DR without more clever workarounds (e.g. dual gain output) as we are getting pretty close to an ideal sensor (within 1.5 stops or so nowadays).

Edited July 5, 2024 by frankchn

[LocalHero1953]

A few more pixels will make no big difference to cameras and photography. (100mp is only 66% more pixels than 60mp, and only 28% more pixels along the long edge). Many cameras still only have 24mp.

A global shutter, eliminating a complete component of the traditional camera, along with shutter shock, bulk, slow flash sync, noise (and noise suppression mechanisms - looking at you, M11), power demand and all the errors that come with them, will be revolutionary.

(There will, of course, be people upset because they can't close the shutter when changing lenses).

Edited July 5, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[SrMi]

Stacked sensors are almost as good as regular BSI sensors, while global shutter sensors are far worse regarding DR/noise. Stacked sensors do not require mechanical shutters, either.

If Leica does not want to implement EFCS, then a stacked sensor would be a good solution, though resolution will probably increase faster with non-BSI sensors.

Sensors already have dual conversion gain, and not much can improve DR. The next step would be photon-counting sensors, but they are far from being available in consumer products. 

 

[JTLeica]

A global electronic shutter is what I want.

Instant readout of each pixel and silent shooting with no shutter shock, no sound and no compromise.

I am a landscape shooter and FF is optimum. Medium format lenses are just far too large and worst of all you need to stop to F11 or F16 to get everything in focus, and IBIS generally isn’t as good, ISO rises as shutter speeds get too low due to the tiny aperture, and you invariably have to increase it. It’s basically pointless in my view.

Fuji have already seen resolution issues with their currently lenses not resolving the high density sensors. Although those APO SLs would have no issue at all.

60MP is already beyond enough for any application. More is nice, I guess, but nobody needs it if they can frame a shot in camera instead of relying on a crop after the fact.

[jrp]

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Faster readout, so stacked or global shutter is great, but they do have lower image quality than regular sensors for still subjects.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

My money is future development will concentrate on fast readout sensors. They can alway cram more pixels in a current BSI sensor but what’s the point? Fast readout is where the money is. The Canon R5II is said to have a fast read out sensor. Nikon is basically dropping standard BSI sensors already. Sony has been making the A1 for nearly 5 tears already. And the A9III is here. The 45-50MP fast readout sensor will become standard with a few specialist global shutter cameras around 24-30MP evolving until their base IQ is equivalent to BSI sensors. It’s worth remembering that at higher ISO’s the difference in IQ of the global sensor is closer to a normal one and that’s where these cameras will get most use.

If it’s IQ you’re chasing you’re basically there. Even Leica has said they feel 24x36mm sensor IQ has peaked and they’re concentrating on the design, build and user experience. Although they could improve the camera IQ tomorrow, with longer lenses, by implementing EFCS.

Computational photography will improve. Olympus started that but Sony will get it to the masses.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

1 hour ago, JTLeica said:

A global electronic shutter is what I want.

Instant readout of each pixel and silent shooting with no shutter shock, no sound and no compromise.

I am a landscape shooter and FF is optimum. Medium format lenses are just far too large and worst of all you need to stop to F11 or F16 to get everything in focus, and IBIS generally isn’t as good, ISO rises as shutter speeds get too low due to the tiny aperture, and you invariably have to increase it. It’s basically pointless in my view.

Fuji have already seen resolution issues with their currently lenses not resolving the high density sensors. Although those APO SLs would have no issue at all.

60MP is already beyond enough for any application. More is nice, I guess, but nobody needs it if they can frame a shot in camera instead of relying on a crop after the fact.

I’ll have to disagree with you there. There’s a small but noticeable bump going from small to miniMF format. The 33x44mm files have much more file pliability in post and even though my APO Summicrons ARE better lenses my medium format gear out resolves the SL3 easily. 

If you look at a normal three lens landscape kit a GFX100SII with 20-35, 45-100 and 100-200 weighs about the same as an SL3, 16-35, 24-70 and (Sigma) 70-200. I can add the Fuji TC to have the same reach and still have better IQ. The IBIS is about the same, actually, with Fujis new cameras. Hasselblad’s IBIS is better than any 24x36mm camera system by some margin. Personally, given my like for longer exposures, I always have a small/medium tripod with me anyway.

We print larger than A0 in house. 1 x 1.5 meters is our normal largest size. You can make sensational prints from the SL3 at that size. But 33x44 is better and you have more file pliability for post processing.

As for the DoF thing. Focus stacking is trivial with my X2D. It’s a shooting mode in the camera. Fujis has a TS lens available.

Gordon

Edited July 5, 2024 by FlashGordonPhotography

[o2mpx]

Currently, for travel landscapes, the X2D with 21/35-75/90/135+TC weigh a ton; the SL2 plus 16-35/24-90+Sigma 105+TC isn’t substantially better. 

Would prefer higher than 60mp FF sensor that can support cropping, and carry only 1 or 2 zooms. 

Edited July 6, 2024 by o2mpx

[JTLeica]

1 hour ago, o2mpx said:

Currently, for travel landscapes, the X2D with 21/35-75/90/135+TC weigh a ton; the SL2 plus 16-35/24-90+Sigma 105+TC isn’t substantially better. 

Would prefer higher than 60mp FF sensor that can support cropping, and carry only 1 or 2 zooms. 

It’s not but you have chosen two of the heaviest lenses going. 16-35 / 24-90. I am going away with a 16-28 (450g) and 24-70 II (745g). You could add a sigma 100/400 if you wanted.

Technically I’m going in a campervan and have a load of other lenses like a 14mm F1.4 and 3 APO lenses but we won’t count those for comparison 😉

[LocalHero1953]

12 hours ago, SrMi said:

Stacked sensors do not require mechanical shutters, either.

Why not? I suspect most people take a 'global sensor' to mean any sensor that is read in one go, effectively instantly. If a stacked sensor can do this, then it is a global sensor. If it cannot read instantly, how can it not require a mechanical shutter (unless it accepts rolling shutter effects)?

Edited July 6, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[hansvons]

10 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

My money is future development will concentrate on fast readout sensors. They can alway cram more pixels in a current BSI sensor but what’s the point?

Exactly. 

The other important objective is fidelity in the shadows. That's where 24MP still outperform high-resolution sensors, especially in higher ISO, and I’m speaking about regular higher ISOs such as ISO 1600. 

I also believe that there’s still headroom for improvements in the highlights. Highlight roll-offs improved vastly in the last decade, but I still find that film outperforms the best sensors in that regard. 

Colour science is directly connected to sensor technology. Many leading “image storytellers” (Nolan, Gursky, Spielberg, Anderson, and many more) believe that digital is still not there yet regarding the palpability of the motif. I agree.

So, the goal for premium camera manufacturers like Leica won't be winning the pixel race but to win the customers by palpable quality and not numbers as those will be soon available to everyone for no premium. The M11 arguably did not pay into the quality mantra as many had hoped.  

10 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

We print larger than A0 in house. 1 x 1.5 meters is our normal largest size. You can make sensational prints from the SL3 at that size. But 33x44 is better and you have more file pliability for post processing.

I have a 44” printer in my atelier and print normally 80 x 60cm. I don't find resolution to be a limiting factor for printing size in most cases. What a great print distinguishes from a good print is the palpability of the subject. There are many reasons why people are drawn to a picture or not. Besides the subject, intent, underlying story etc. it’s the colours. Digital doesn’t cut it for me. From my selection of “printable” images 95% were shot on film. 

Until camera manufacturers close that gap, I only use digital for journalistic work. 

Edited July 6, 2024 by hansvons

[Simone_DF]

11 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Sony has been making the A1 for nearly 5 tears already.

5 tears is exactly what happens every time I see a Sony menu

[jaapv]

19 hours ago, o2mpx said:

Do we expect to see higher than 61mp sensors in the next gen? How close will it get to 100mp used by MF Fujis and HBs?

When/if the next iteration is close to 75mp, would it justify passing on MF and sticking with FF reduced weight and bulk?

Yes we can expect sensors well beyond 100 MP within a few years. At present  ASML is beginning to install EUV lithography machines   It may take a few years to get everything up and running but as soon as the initial AI chip demand peak is met, there will be production capacity for extremely high-resolution photo sensors. As soon as they are available the marketing boys will move in to persuade us that we need them. ( which not). 

[SrMi]

6 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Why not? I suspect most people take a 'global sensor' to mean any sensor that is read in one go, effectively instantly. If a stacked sensor can do this, then it is a global sensor. If it cannot read instantly, how can it not require a mechanical shutter (unless it accepts rolling shutter effects)?

A stacked sensor reads out as fast as a mechanical shutter (approx. 1/250 sec). Mechanical shutter is not instant, it also has some rolling shutter.

[Geoff C. Bassett]

More dynamic range is what I hope for.

[SrMi]

12 minutes ago, Geoff C. Bassett said:

More dynamic range is what I hope for.

It is unlikely unless computational photography is involved.

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Hallo,

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[Geoff C. Bassett]

38 minutes ago, SrMi said:

It is unlikely unless computational photography is involved.

Sensors like the one in the Alexa 35 cinema camera can capture massive amounts of dynamic range. Don't see why a photo company couldn't release a stacked sensor photo camera to do the same. I would love it. 

[SrMi]

22 minutes ago, Geoff C. Bassett said:

Sensors like the one in the Alexa 35 cinema camera can capture massive amounts of dynamic range. Don't see why a photo company couldn't release a stacked sensor photo camera to do the same. I would love it. 

Dynamic range can not be compared unless you use the same measuring technique. E.g., Sony claims to measure 15 stops for its 60MP sensor, while P2P measures less than 12 stops. There is also the video vs. still, which is entirely different, but that is the only thing I know about video :).

The max DR in still photography has not changed since 2013 (Sony a7R announcement). The only significant advancement was the addition of dual conversion gain, which helped a lot at higher ISOs.