Official Leica Statement: Leica SL3 Issues

[Indeepthought]

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1 minute ago, SrMi said:

Bug free software does not exist. The significance of bugs varies a lot.

I do not remember a commercial product where the bugs prevented me from using it effectively. That includes all Leica cameras.

One must assume you are one in a million. The reports about some of the latest Leica offerings are far from as one might say ‘Reliability Friendly’ ~

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, Indeepthought said:

One must assume you are one in a million. The reports about some of the latest Leica offerings are far from as one might say ‘Reliability Friendly’ ~

You may conclude that from the posts of non-owners. I do not know what "Reliability Friendly" means.

Edited July 16, 2024 by SrMi

[Indeepthought]

11 minutes ago, SrMi said:

You may conclude that from the posts of non-owners. I do not know what "Reliability Friendly" means.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Do you really need a dictionary for ‘friendly’ ?

[jiggyb21]

I fall smack in the middle on this current issue.  Part of me thinks that if you rely completely on a camera to perform once in a lifetime tasks; weddings and documentary work, then you should likely be using a company with more resources to fix these bugs.  Canon, for example, has been known to fix "major" firmware issues in less than 24 hrs.  When larger companies release 5 times the number of cameras than Leica and sell 100's of thousands more units there is am innately built-in test base and issues can be identified and resolved much faster.  I got into Leica for the user experience for my personal work because of how I feel it lets me better create art and I realize not everyone does but I honestly never intrust a niche brand for my professional, paid work.  Having said that I feel that overwriting files is the biggest mistake a camera could ever make.  It's absolutely inexcusable.  When you open the SD door on a Canon R5 the camera powers down.  When you pull the battery, it uses the internal power to complete what appears to be a power-down sequence.  These must be learned behaviors from past mistakes and Leica will learn from this too.  

 

I fully blame Leica for this and I feel for the photographers that have lost important photos but I really think that for a company like Leica, this debacle will only serve as incentive to shy away from innovation and further firmware updates.  I really hope that doesn't happen.  

[SrMi]

10 minutes ago, Indeepthought said:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Do you really need a dictionary for ‘friendly’ ?

You cannot combine two independent terms and assume they make sense. I have never read any referring to devices as “reliability friendly” and “reliability unfriendly.” Yes, I have heard of unfriendly forum members 🤪.

[Indeepthought]

5 minutes ago, SrMi said:

You cannot combine two independent terms and assume they make sense. I have never read any referring to devices as “reliability friendly” and “reliability unfriendly.” Yes, I have heard of unfriendly forum members 🤪.

We all have… 🍻

[Jim B]

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I’m sorry but through this whole rant of a thread…. Is there any one person who actually owns the camera and  lost files? And in all honesty, if you pulled the battery while the camera was on, or writing a file, or shut it off while it was writing a file…. That’s on you! It’s common sense! And Yes it takes longer to write a 60 meg file and certainly a burst of them!

I’ve never had an issue since I received mine in May. It’s absolutely the best SL ever! To the point that I’m selling my SL2 body and my complete Hasselblad X1D system and 4 xcd lenses, (as I know now, I’ll never be using it anymore) just so I can buy more SL Apo lenses! 
 

Believe me if there was something wrong with this camera, I would be the first to mention it! 

 

[IkarusJohn]

40 minutes ago, Jim B said:

Believe me if there was something wrong with this camera, I would be the first to mention it! 

You’re saying that if you don’t have a problem then there isn’t one?

@SrMi, you may not have intended it, but your last post rather confirms mine.  A bug might be something small and irrelevant (someone above suggested a typo in the table of contents of the user manual).  If you understood my post above (and I think you did), my view of “bug free” is a camera that can do everything it is supposed to do.  The M11 apparently doesn’t (though yours apparently does - good for you).

I do not give Leica a free pass for any of this for all the reasons I have stated before.  Do I own an SL3? No!  Do I own an M11? No!  Does this mean that the problems don’t exist?  Of course not.  Why comment?  I didn’t buy either of those cameras because I still own Leica cameras that I wish to use, and reading the specs and user comments, I wouldn’t buy one.

I comment because I’m extremely disappointed in Leica that they are not getting on top of issues which have plagued its digital M cameras (and the SL) since the M8.  People posting that their cameras work problem free isn’t the point.

[Jim B]

10 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

You’re saying that if you don’t have a problem then there isn’t one?

@SrMi, you may not have intended it, but your last post rather confirms mine.  A bug might be something small and irrelevant (someone above suggested a typo in the table of contents of the user manual).  If you understood my post above (and I think you did), my view of “bug free” is a camera that can do everything it is supposed to do.  The M11 apparently doesn’t (though yours apparently does - good for you).

I do not give Leica a free pass for any of this for all the reasons I have stated before.  Do I own an SL3? No!  Do I own an M11? No!  Does this mean that the problems don’t exist?  Of course not.  Why comment?  I didn’t buy either of those cameras because I still own Leica cameras that I wish to use, and reading the specs and user comments, I wouldn’t buy one.

I comment because I’m extremely disappointed in Leica that they are not getting on top of issues which have plagued its digital M cameras (and the SL) since the M8.  People posting that their cameras work problem free isn’t the point.

What I am saying is that it seems for the most part  people that don’t even own the camera, are needlessly bashing Leica for apparently what seems to be user errors….and quite frankly if your that prone to pull a battery out of working camera then perhaps they should stick with a film body as it seems they don’t have the mental capacity to use a digital body… and if your dissatisfied with Leica, don’t buy one…oh that’s right, you haven’t… And your saying  there plauged with problems? My M10P never had any issue nor my SL2 or SL2s or my SL3. So yes to be you appear to be bashing out of ill will, or jealousy….

Edited July 16, 2024 by Jim B

[Indeepthought]

1 minute ago, Jim B said:

What I am saying is that it seems for the most part  people that don’t even own the camera, are needlessly bashing Leica for apparently what seems to be user errors….and quite frankly if your that prone to pull a battery out of working camera then perhaps they should stick with a film body as it seems they don’t have the mental capacity to use a digital body… and if your dissatisfied with Leica, don’t buy one…oh that’s right, you haven’t… And your saying  there plauged with problems? My M10P never had any issue nor my SL2 or SL2s. So yes to be you appear to be bashing out of ill will, or jealousy….

Neither  jealousy or marque bashing, I’ve used Leicas  and many other makes through the years. To lay out anything between $10-15k on any equipment that is suspect is surely burying your head in the sand! ~ Be Happy… 🍷

[IkarusJohn]

5 minutes ago, Jim B said:

What I am saying is that it seems for the most part  people that don’t even own the camera, are needlessly bashing Leica for apparently what seems to be user errors….and quite frankly if your that prone to pull a battery out of working camera then perhaps they should stick with a film body as it seems they don’t have the mental capacity to use a digital body… and if your dissatisfied with Leica, don’t buy one…oh that’s right, you haven’t… And your saying  there plauged with problems? My M10P never had any issue nor my SL2 or SL2s or my SL3. So yes to be you appear to be bashing out of ill will, or jealousy….

Hi Jim,

I see you’re a relatively recent member of the forum.  The reasons I have stated before is the following tale of woe:

• M9 & Monochrom - sensor cover glass corrosion (M( traded for an M-A and Monochrom cover glass replaced)
• M Edition 60 - bricked (returned to Solms for almost complete replacement)
• SL(601) - bricked (replaced)
• M10-D - bricked (repaired then returned to Wetzlar after faulty repair)

The only digital Leica camera I have had which has not had to go back to the mothership for repair was the TL2.  Now, Leica looked after me well, but that is an astonishing failure rate.

I’ve never pulled a battery from a camera while it is still doing its thing, or likewise an SD card.

I have stuck with Leica because I love my M cameras - I have three (one still in Wetzlar) and a dozen or so of Leica’s best M lenses.  That doesn’t mean that Leica owners shouldn’t point out where Leica is not doing so well.  We want them to do better.  So, yes I have bought Leica cameras and other gear, and lots of them.

So, no I don’t think you can say I’m “bashing” Leica out of ill will or jealousy.  Perhaps you could make that allegation if you knew anything about me, but clearly you don’t.

Best
John

[SrMi]

3 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

You’re saying that if you don’t have a problem then there isn’t one?

It is important that those who do not have issues also state that otherwise, people will think that millions (sic) have a problem.

By all (most?) owner accounts, SL3 is a very stable and "bug free" camera. If you take the battery out without turning the camera off, you may lose data. Duh! Not "duh" is the amount of data loss that could occur, and Leica is working on fixing it. 

6 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

 If you understood my post above (and I think you did), my view of “bug free” is a camera that can do everything it is supposed to do.

I agree, as long as you do not say "all the time." That sums up the state of M11, Q3, and SL3. Every camera I owned has locked up at least once. C'est la vie. I still call them stable cameras.

50 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I do not give Leica a free pass for any of this for all the reasons I have stated before.

Neither do I. If you owned SL3, you probably would not be as upset about Leica. If my Leica cameras would cause me grief, I would stop using them. Plenty of pretenders are in my camera cupboards, eager to replace Leicas in my camera bag.

[IkarusJohn]

14 minutes ago, SrMi said:

It is important that those who do not have issues also state that otherwise, people will think that millions (sic) have a problem.

By all (most?) owner accounts, SL3 is a very stable and "bug free" camera. If you take the battery out without turning the camera off, you may lose data. Duh! Not "duh" is the amount of data loss that could occur, and Leica is working on fixing it. 

I’m less interested in the SL3, though disappointed there appear to be issues.  It’s the M11 that really annoys me, not because I have any intention of buying one, but because it’s indicative of where Leica is taking the M digital cameras.  Many have implied that, if you don’t own an M11 you have no right to comment on its issues.  I don’t agree with that position at all.

I look at every new Leica and every new Leica M as I’m pretty committed to the platform.  On its release, I stated quite clearly that I didn’t like the M11 and where it was heading.  As for the SL platform, I’m selling my remaining L mount lenses.  I’ll keep the SL as a universal platform for my M lenses and my one remaining R lens, and I’ll keep the TL2 for cycling and similar use with M lenses.  I like the SL, and wasn’t tempted by the SL2 or SL3.

That said, I feel very sorry for the buyers of M11 and SL3 cameras who are having problems.  It is unfortunate that some on the forum seem to make little of their disappointment.

I stand by my more general comments that Leica is performing badly when it comes to its digital offerings - wonderful cameras, but poorly implemented.  That is not really good enough for a premium brand with its history.  Perhaps they should sell fewer, issue fewer releases and spend the time getting what they do sell right.

Cheers
John

 

[nonoketchup]

2 hours ago, Jim B said:

I’m sorry but through this whole rant of a thread…. Is there any one person who actually owns the camera and  lost files? And in all honesty, if you pulled the battery while the camera was on, or writing a file, or shut it off while it was writing a file…. That’s on you! It’s common sense! And Yes it takes longer to write a 60 meg file and certainly a burst of them!

I’ve never had an issue since I received mine in May. It’s absolutely the best SL ever! To the point that I’m selling my SL2 body and my complete Hasselblad X1D system and 4 xcd lenses, (as I know now, I’ll never be using it anymore) just so I can buy more SL Apo lenses! 
 

Believe me if there was something wrong with this camera, I would be the first to mention it! 

 

Yea. I lost images. There’s other threads with more reported loss. I know two other photographers personally who did as well. 
 

The files would have finished writing, camera gone to sleep, battery pulled in some capacity… and images gone. 
 

If you trace back to a few threads, you would’ve seen the first hand accounts of this bug. Like I reported previously, early adopters used the camera like usual and would’ve never imaged a camera that cost $7000 could do this. 

 

[JTLeica]

4 hours ago, Jim B said:

I’m sorry but through this whole rant of a thread…. Is there any one person who actually owns the camera and  lost files? And in all honesty, if you pulled the battery while the camera was on, or writing a file, or shut it off while it was writing a file…. That’s on you! It’s common sense! And Yes it takes longer to write a 60 meg file and certainly a burst of them!

I’ve never had an issue since I received mine in May. It’s absolutely the best SL ever! To the point that I’m selling my SL2 body and my complete Hasselblad X1D system and 4 xcd lenses, (as I know now, I’ll never be using it anymore) just so I can buy more SL Apo lenses! 
 

Believe me if there was something wrong with this camera, I would be the first to mention it! 

 

No but others have. In other threads, maybe 4/5 people.

Ive been careful by replacing cards at the same time as swapping batteries then backing up the cards every day. Which is good practice anyway 

[helged]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

It is important that those who do not have issues also state that otherwise, people will think that millions (sic) have a problem.

I quite agree. That being said, error/issues need to be accepted and fixed. Preferably faster than what is typically done.

For me, no issues with SL3.

[LocalHero1953]

5 hours ago, Jim B said:

Is there any one person who actually owns the camera and  lost files?

Yes. Not me, but if you follow the various threads as I have done, you will see that there are a number of people posting here who have lost plenty of images, often critical ones. The fault appears to be reproducible (see Jono Slack's posts), and Leica has, eventually, acknowledged the problem.

Unlike SrMi, I do not see this as something that normal use should avoid. Perhaps powering down before changing a battery, SD card or lens is something an organised, careful, considered photographer does, but frankly life is not like that. In the heat of the moment of taking photos at an event and finding the battery symbol flashing red, it is inevitable that many people (including me) will pull the battery to put a new one in without switching off, so as to immediately keep shooting. That should not result in lost images. It does not happen with my SL2-S, where I frequently hot swap battery (and lens).

 

Edit. As always of course with fault reporting on a forum, we have absolutely no idea how many people have encountered this (reproducible) bug, or the more random M11 freezes, film M pressure plate scratching faults (or M9 corrosion, M6 top plate bubbles.........). It could be anything from 0.001% to 10%.

Edited July 16, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[TeleElmar135mm]

vor 14 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

Some of us have an angel sitting on their shoulder. 

... mine shows me his butt

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[SrMi]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

nlike SrMi, I do not see this as something that normal use should avoid. Perhaps powering down before changing a battery, SD card or lens is something an organised, careful, considered photographer does, but frankly life is not like that. In the heat of the moment of taking photos at an event and finding the battery symbol flashing red, it is inevitable that many people (including me) will pull the battery to put a new one in without switching off, so as to immediately keep shooting. That should not result in lost images. It does not happen with my SL2-S, where I frequently hot swap battery (and lens).

All manufacturers warn that unexpected power removal could lead  to loss of data. It is very hard, expensive, complicated, and slow to write software that can anticipate loss of power at any execution point without loss of data. 
The problem with SL3 is the amount of lost data and that it is hard to differentiate between sleep and shut down modes.

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[Chaemono]

When I’m not sure whether the SL3 is in sleep or shut down mode, I press the shutter button to find out.