Official Leica Statement: Leica SL3 Issues

[SoarFM]

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The switch doe not seem the problem.

The problem is that files have the potential to be overwritten triggered by effectively "force quitting" the camera by removing the battery while either in full power on or standby mode.

The start up time on the SL3 from full off or standby is nothing short of amazing. Far more likely the file overwrite issue is OS/firmware related. The temporary(?) workaround is evidence of this.

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2024 by SoarFM

[BernardC]

15 minutes ago, SoarFM said:

The switch doe not seem the problem.

The problem is that files have the potential to be overwritten triggered by effectively "force quitting" the camera by removing the battery while either in full power on or standby mode.

I agree. They would have fixed the issue by now if it was simple. I suspect that it's either part of a third-party library, or firmware inside a third-party chip. That same I/O code is probably used in thousands of other devices, but the bug hasn't been noticed yet because their batteries are harder to remove (laptop, phone, etc.).

In the meanwhile, your best bet is to follow the old advice: do not remove a battery or memory card unless you are absolutely sure that the camera is fully turned off. I've worked with professionals who wouldn't even switch lenses without turning the camera off!

[ERSY Photography]

I was not care by this bug because I always turn off the camera before removing the battery and when changing lenses.

I find it logical and, as a professional, understand that time is needed to write images to the card.

I consider it absolutely wrong to remove the battery while the camera is on. I am only care about one thing:  Is there bug when changing the battery if the camera was completely turned off

Can someone answer me?

[Mikko Kankainen]

It is not about time is needed to write images. Camera can be in sleep one hour and after you take out battery you can loose more than 500 images. Problem is that there is no way knowing if camera is in sleep or shutdown. And many assume (even me) that if camera is blank (no power etc) it is safe to take out battery, images that were written will stay written. But with this bug this is not the case.

So be careful if your camera freezes or something happens. Even if you turn on camera and see that files are there, transfer them somewhere safe asap. Or take one card away that has images. That's my advice + be 100% sure that you see red Leica logo when you shutdown camera.

Edited July 6, 2024 by Mikko Kankainen

[Mikko Kankainen]

Here is my sample of lost images. Fileformat:HOUR:MINUTE:filaname. And I was shooting constatly (or my hired photographer was next to me). Images from 745-938 went somewhere even they were written. Battery was charged from 17.34-18.00. So photos from 18.00-19.04 (6pm-7pm) went missing. 

Reason was that my hired photographer did not know that he had to push 3 sec power button. He assumed that one press and wait until camera shuts down is enough. And I cannot blame him.

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[Stuart Richardson]

Exactly. The problem is not caused by the change from switch to button, but it results from it. The fact that it is not immediately clear what state the camera is in when it is idle can easily cause issues. Again, it is a excessively complicated way of handling power management from a company who is outwardly claiming to be focused on das Wesentliche. What could be more essential than a binary switch? I think this also results from an internal conflict in the company (and the industry in general) about whether cameras are or should be computers. Consumers have driven us toward mobile integration of everything, which is why we are in this mess in the first place (isn't it always on for Leica Fotos or something?). Meanwhile, robust, professional working tools general do not benefit from this additional complexity.

Edited July 6, 2024 by Stuart Richardson

[jaapv]

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If Leica cannot solve such a problem  within a short time, I wonder why they don’t hire a couple of competent IT consultants and present a solution in weeks rather than years. Or farm their firmware out to the Zeiss Jena IT division like they did with the M8. 

[SrMi]

9 minutes ago, jaapv said:

If Leica cannot solve such a problem  within a short time, I wonder why they don’t hire a couple of competent IT consultants and present a solution in weeks rather than years. Or farm their firmware out to the Zeiss Jena IT division like they did with the M8. 

IT consultants never solve real problems. On the contrary.

Leica needs to reinvent the software development process so that the software does not solely rely on testing to prove its reliability.

[BillCB]

2 hours ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

It is not about time is needed to write images. Camera can be in sleep one hour and after you take out battery you can loose more than 500 images. Problem is that there is no way knowing if camera is in sleep or shutdown. And many assume (even me) that if camera is blank (no power etc) it is safe to take out battery, images that were written will stay written. But with this bug this is not the case.

So be careful if your camera freezes or something happens. Even if you turn on camera and see that files are there, transfer them somewhere safe asap. Or take one card away that has images. That's my advice + be 100% sure that you see red Leica logo when you shutdown camera.

I always touch the button to see if the camera is asleep or off, thus ensuring it's off before removing the battery. To me it's common sense to turn off ANY appliance before depriving it of power. I've never had a problem with any of my Leicas in behaving this way.

 

[jaapv]

31 minutes ago, SrMi said:

IT consultants never solve real problems. On the contrary.

Leica needs to reinvent the software development process so that the software does not solely rely on testing to prove its reliability.

I said competent  If they can upset the whole showbiz world by destroying Ticketmaster, they can surely fix a minor firmware glitch. (I have seen suggestions already, like writing the file number to solid state after each image instead of after each power cycle. Disclaimer- I am not competent in coding at all - attributed to someone who is) 

[Jonathan Levin]

As I mentioned before, I would not pull the plug from wall outlet to shut down a desktop computer. Most pro type cameras I’ve owned all say switch off camera when changing lens, card or battery. For me this is a no brainer being someone who has been around long enough to lose data in any imaginable way with computers, cameras. Nightmare all of them.

Given that, when camera is in stand-by mode, a slow blinking power button might be a nice implementation. I think it does this in charge mode but not certain.

Using Evf Extended, when doing full shut down, you only see the tell tale Leica logo if you happen to be looking through the camera at shut down. Even in Extended mode, seeing that logo on the LCD would be helpful

[SrMi]

12 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I said competent  If they can upset the whole showbiz world by destroying Ticketmaster, they can surely fix a minor firmware glitch. (I have seen suggestions already, like writing the file number to solid state after each image instead of after each power cycle. Disclaimer- I am not competent in coding at all - attributed to someone who is) 

What I meant is that based on the issues with recent Leica cameras, the software issues seem to be more fundamental. 

[jaapv]

It is a matter of what issues and how solved - some are forgivable, some less so. 

For instance:

M8 IR and waterfall banding - forgivable teething troubles - rapidly solved 

M8 sudden death syndrome - batch of substandard parts can happen to anybody - rapidly solved

M9 - Corrosion saga - Kodak was part of it and it got more or less resolved in the end - if Leica had struck a deal with one or more repair services in the end it would have been forgivable

M 240 heat freeze - in my recall (I was one of the first to suffer) solved quite promptly with a refinement after longer time.

M11 - took far too long 

SL3  - too late to acknowledge given the severity and too slowly resolved - if ever. 

I have a feeling that Leica is sailing close to the wind  in an attempt to keep up with the technology tsunami from East Asia and not quite succeeding. The glacial repair service is not helping either...😉

[LocalHero1953]

I often check if my camera is ready for use purely by touching the switch. It's possible with my SL2-S and Q2, but wouldn't be with the SL3. I hear stories about how the new button switch has the potential for future remote power on-off, but that comes way down the list of my priorities in day to day shooting. I remain to be convinced the new button is worth it. It looks more like an answer in need of a question.

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, Jonathan Levin said:

As I mentioned before, I would not pull the plug from wall outlet to shut down a desktop computer.

That is beside the point. No one would normally pull the plug, but a power loss is always around the corner, so a contingency safety plan must be implemented at a OS level.
In fact, unsurprisingly, computers won’t delete or overwrite files that are already saved, but Leica cameras do. 

[goodbokeh]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

It is a matter of what issues and how solved - some are forgivable, some less so. 

For instance:

M8 IR and waterfall banding - forgivable teething troubles - rapidly solved 

M8 sudden death syndrome - batch of substandard parts can happen to anybody - rapidly solved

M9 - Corrosion saga - Kodak was part of it and it got more or less resolved in the end - if Leica had struck a deal with one or more repair services in the end it would have been forgivable

M 240 heat freeze - in my recall (I was one of the first to suffer) solved quite promptly with a refinement after longer time.

M11 - took far too long 

SL3  - too late to acknowledge given the severity and too slowly resolved - if ever. 

I have a feeling that Leica is sailing close to the wind  in an attempt to keep up with the technology tsunami from East Asia and not quite succeeding. The glacial repair service is not helping either...😉

jaapv, your historical knowledge is comforting and your contemporary analysis makes sense to me. BTW, Fred Miranda has called for the Leica Firmware/Software team to be dismissed. Given what you and SrMi have posted I wonder why Leica hasn't ask their L2 technology partner Panasonic to bring in a Firmware Fire Team to clean up this multi-model multi-year firmware mess.

I've come around to wanting to purchase a M11-P for my 70th but I just can't pull the trigger with all of this going on.

Edited July 6, 2024 by goodbokeh
Typo

[LocalHero1953]

The SL series is sold, properly, as a robust camera for use in intense shooting environments. Till the SL3 it has been just that. When the SL was launched, the phrases “event photographer” and “Swiss Army knife” were often used, justifiably. (It may have been marketed as a camera for pros, and it is indeed used by pros, but Leica’s market is rich and/or extremely competent amateurs - not necessarily the same group). The babying that Leica suggests can only ever be seen as a workaround - if that is normal practice for a SL3, then they’ve lost the plot. FTAOD I don’t think they have (though the power switch makes me wonder). I hope they get it sorted ASAP. I, for one, have no intention spending my photographic life turning off the camera before changing lenses, SD cards or batteries. 

Edited July 6, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[LocalHero1953]

36 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I, for one, have no intention spending my photographic life turning off the camera before changing lenses, SD cards or batteries. 

I should have added - nor am I going to play mind games with my camera to determine whether it is on or off.

[Luke_Miller]

The following may, or may not, be relevant to the current situation.

Some time back I was involved with the test and delivery of complex, real-time systems.  I learned some truths in the process.

1. The delivery date is the delivery date.

2. If the hardware takes longer than planned, software development and test are compressed (See 1.).

3. If the software is behind schedule, test is restricted to the time remaining (See 1.)

4. Software coders are poor testers. 

5.  With complex systems there will never be enough time to test to the point that no errors remain. (See 1.)

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[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, Luke_Miller said:

The following may, or may not, be relevant to the current situation.

Some time back I was involved with the test and delivery of complex, real-time systems.  I learned some truths in the process.

1. The delivery date is the delivery date.

2. If the hardware takes longer than planned, software development and test are compressed (See 1.).

3. If the software is behind schedule, test is restricted to the time remaining (See 1.)

4. Software coders are poor testers. 

5.  With complex systems there will never be enough time to test to the point that no errors remain. (See 1.)

The most important (Dijkstra):

Testing shows the presence of bugs, not their absence.