Why did Kodak in 1933(?) design their disposable 35mm film cassettes shorter than the FILCA or Zeiss 540, which were then the industry standard

[wlaidlaw]

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9 hours ago, Anbaric said:

Is your Leitz-Agfa is the reloadable version? I imagine their original disposable felt trap cassette would have been the same size, but they must at some point have adopted the Kodak standard. Someone on ebay has a cassette of Agfa film dated 1936 (now that's what I call expired) 'für Leica etc. Cameras', but as it would cost me over $100 delivered I'll probably stick to HP5! Maybe I should ask the seller a question ('Could you just measure the cassette to see if it will fit in my camera?').

Agfa had three different sizes. 135 for Agfa cameras, 235 for Contax and 435 for Leica. 

Wilson

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, wlaidlaw said:

Agfa had three different sizes. 135 for Agfa cameras, 235 for Contax and 435 for Leica. 

Wilson

These were originally Kodak film format codes. 135 is the standard disposable 35mm cassette we still use today. 235 and 435 were, I believe, daylight film reloads for the Contax and Leica reusable cassettes, sold as wrapped and sealed spools without cassettes. This type of reloading is described on p8-10 of the IIIa manual below. It's a pretty neat idea, less wasteful than a disposable cassette because the cassette shell is not discarded, and less fiddly than a darkroom reload of bulk or pre-cut lengths of film (p12-14). But fully disposable cassettes already existed as early as 1932 (the Agfa version for Leica), were standardised by Kodak as 135 in 1934, and eventually became what most people used.

https://www.cameramanuals.org/leica_pdf/leica_iiia.pdf

In parallel, Agfa also made proprietary 35mm cartridges for their Karat cameras in the 30s and 40s, incompatible with 135 cassettes. Eventually, they switched this range to the standard cassettes they were already selling for other 35mm systems.

[zeitz]

44 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

less wasteful than a disposable cassette because the cassette shell is not discarded

Those cassettes were actually reusable, although nearly all were discarded.  The crimped caps did not appear until roughly 1964, per PhotoNet.  Kodak continued to sell the old style cassettes for years after that under the name Snap-Caps.  They were for folks who wanted to load Kodak 100 ft bulk film in a Kodak cassette.

[TomB_tx]

3 minutes ago, zeitz said:

Those cassettes were actually reusable, although nearly all were discarded.  The crimped caps did not appear until roughly 1964, per PhotoNet.  Kodak continued to sell the old style cassettes for years after that under the name Snap-Caps.  They were for folks who wanted to load Kodak 100 ft bulk film in a Kodak cassette.

That's right - I remember opening them in the darkroom with a solid rap of the end of the spool on the table. Really confused me when the new cassettes failed to pop open...

[argusmike]

On 6/19/2024 at 12:04 PM, willeica said:

The only change I had to make with a 1926 Leica I Model A was to change the clips shown below from the one with the long tail to the one with the short tail. .

In 1972 I bought a Leica III in Berlin and used it happily with Kodak Kodachrome cassettes. Never had any trouble with the sprocket holes showing up, so tonight I looked inside the camera. Sure enough, some previous owner (I bought it from a shop just off the Kurfürstendamm) had installed the short tail (V2) lock.

Mike

[Anbaric]

5 hours ago, argusmike said:

In 1972 I bought a Leica III in Berlin and used it happily with Kodak Kodachrome cassettes. Never had any trouble with the sprocket holes showing up, so tonight I looked inside the camera. Sure enough, some previous owner (I bought it from a shop just off the Kurfürstendamm) had installed the short tail (V2) lock.

Mike

I think without the change to the V2 lock, it may not have been possible to load a modern cassette at all (I believe @willeica mentioned having to swap out the lock in a 1920s Leica). I suppose people who didn't change the lock must have continued to use the FILCA, but many others did make the change (it must have helped that the V2 was free from Leitz and could be installed by the user). The other modification, the 'vertical bar' film pusher in the base plate, is less necessary. Pre-IIIf Leicas didn't have it out of the box and most users didn't have it installed later. Until I saw the extract in post #14 I didn't even know it could be retrofitted. I can't say I've noticed sprocket hole problems with my IIIc or IIIa (V2 lock but no vertical bar), but minor issues may not have been obvious with scans or machine prints - I should have a close look at the negs. But this seems to be more of a problem with some cameras than others, for whatever reason.

[jerzy]

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vor 25 Minuten schrieb Anbaric:

Until I saw the extract in post #14 I didn't even know it could be retrofitted.

neither me.  But then I came across wartime IIIc that has been modified to adopt bottom cover with bar. Left photo shows crate of red dial IIIf, right photo is wartime IIIc with milled cutout. Was possible, but nothing what could have been done at home.

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[willeica]

4 hours ago, Anbaric said:

I think without the change to the V2 lock, it may not have been possible to load a modern cassette at all (I believe @willeica mentioned having to swap out the lock in a 1920s Leica). I suppose people who didn't change the lock must have continued to use the FILCA, but many others did make the change (it must have helped that the V2 was free from Leitz and could be installed by the user). The other modification, the 'vertical bar' film pusher in the base plate, is less necessary. Pre-IIIf Leicas didn't have it out of the box and most users didn't have it installed later. Until I saw the extract in post #14 I didn't even know it could be retrofitted. I can't say I've noticed sprocket hole problems with my IIIc or IIIa (V2 lock but no vertical bar), but minor issues may not have been obvious with scans or machine prints - I should have a close look at the negs. But this seems to be more of a problem with some cameras than others, for whatever reason.

I have a large number of early cameras to check for this feature. I just have to find the time to do this. From memory, most of the cameras, which I have, have the short form which allows the use of modern film cassettes.

William  

[wlaidlaw]

I will have to check my recently acquired 1A but I do have a few FILCA cassettes anyway and the Leitz film winder. The 1A has to go to Alan Starkie anyway for a bit of tidying, so if it has the long form, I will get him to change it. I know my 1C, Model 2 and Model 3 all have the short form tab, as obviously has my 0 series replica. As the 1935 Model 2 and 1934 3 belonged respectively to my grandfather and great uncle, I am guessing my father must have taken them at some point to Lizars in Aberdeen, the nearest Leica dealer, to have them updated. 

Wilson

Edited June 27, 2024 by wlaidlaw

[nitroplait]

On 6/22/2024 at 1:13 AM, Anbaric said:

Someone on ebay has a cassette of Agfa film dated 1936 (now that's what I call expired) 'für Leica etc. Cameras'

I have an Agfa box/cassette with expiry date "SEP 1939" (no film inside):

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I don't know the normal shelf life of black & white film in the 1930's. Perhaps it was manufactured 2-3 years prior? 
It must have been less than 5 years as the sensitivity on the package is written as 17/10 DIN.  
It is my understanding that the DIN standard for film sensitivity was published in 1934. 17/10 DIN supposedly is the early way of notation. It was later changed to just one number - 17 DIN in this case.

The total height of the Agfa cassette is 47mm. Here next to a FILCA:

The plastic cartridge has an easily removable top. It is almost identical to the currently available reusable plastic cartridges. 
 

The plastic top is signed Agfa in the plastic mould. I have another very similar plastic cartridge signed Adox with the same dimensions but without accompanying box, unfortunately.

I find the reference to Rolleikin (the 35mm adapter for use in Rolleiflex cameras) on the package interesting. 
I can't help but wonder, why would Contax be reduced to "u.a. Cameras"?

Would Rolleikin adapters have been more common than Contax cameras at this point in time? Or are these a poor fit for Contax?

 

The top was sealed with a small piece of black tape (see photo below) to prevent accidental opening. I don't know if the cassette was intended to be reused or disposed of.
 

 

Edited July 11, 2024 by nitroplait

[wlaidlaw]

I don't think the Rolleikin 35mm adapter was ever that common. At one point I was looking for a Rolleikin (and failed to find one at the time for my 3.5 Planar Rolleiflex F) because whereas my Rondinax 35mm daylight tank works well, my 120 Rondinax tank always makes a pigs ear of stripping off the paper backing. I now just send my 120 films off to Labo Photo in Toulouse, https://www.monlabophoto.fr/ , who do a far better job than me and also return the film to me with really high resolution scans for printing on my Epson Stylus 3880. I just did a search on eBay and of course, now that I don't need one, there are two Rolleikin model 2 f3.5's on sale at the moment.

One of my Uncles who was a long time Rolleiflex TLR user, with 2 full size ones and a 127 film Baby, once told us that the Rolleikin did not work very well. My father, who could never resist taking this very bumptious man down a peg or two, then commented: "Well surely the Rolleikin not working very well just matches the rest of the camera". My father was not a TLR fan and for 120 film, used a Zeiss Super Ikonta C. 

Wilson

[nitroplait]

1 hour ago, wlaidlaw said:

I don't think the Rolleikin 35mm adapter was ever that common.

 

Exactly my thinking.
Strange that Agfa choose Rolleikin over whatever other 35mm camera that may have been in-vogue besides Leica.
Perhaps an example of early paid product placement? 😉 

[Anbaric]

I think the Rolleikin 1 may have been new in 1939, so they may just have been emphasising compatibility (I think there were some earlier 35mm adapters for the Rolleiflex that used special cassettes - any Rollei experts here?). Perhaps there were already too many other 35mm cameras to list on the box by 1939, so even a prestigious brand like Contax wasn't mentioned. Leica, of course, is special!

[nitroplait]

32 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

I think the Rolleikin 1 may have been new in 1939

Could be an explanation. However this roll expired in 1939, so we are probably looking at 37’ish.

[Anbaric]

Digging a little deeper, I see a 'Rolleikin back' advertised at least as far back as 1934. Either the claims that the 'Rolleikin 1' was introduced in 1939 are incorrect, or '1' indicated a new version of the product.

[willeica]

18 hours ago, nitroplait said:

Exactly my thinking.
Strange that Agfa choose Rolleikin over whatever other 35mm camera that may have been in-vogue besides Leica.
Perhaps an example of early paid product placement? 😉 

 

14 hours ago, Anbaric said:

I think the Rolleikin 1 may have been new in 1939, so they may just have been emphasising compatibility (I think there were some earlier 35mm adapters for the Rolleiflex that used special cassettes - any Rollei experts here?). Perhaps there were already too many other 35mm cameras to list on the box by 1939, so even a prestigious brand like Contax wasn't mentioned. Leica, of course, is special!

They were producing this film for the German market and were hardly likely to have mentioned the new 'invader', the Kodak Retina 😉 . This cassette should work in Leicas from that period. It is slightly shorter than the FILCA because it lacks some of the features of that device. I looked here https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/index.html but unfortunately the prewar B+W Agfa films are not covered. An Isopan F canister, however, appears top right here https://www.photomemorabilia.co.uk/Colour_Darkroom/Early_Agfa.html .

William