M11 intermittent over exposure

[kiwidad]

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what this thread proves is the lack of understanding of exactly how a sensor works.  if ISO is a post process why do we even have it. We could capture from -50 EV to +100EV within loss at all of highlights or shadows!

The sensitivity of a sensor is created by the gain applied. We can call this gain number ISO if you like and that is effectively how it works

in parting does anyone know how a transistor works?

Edited July 3, 2024 by kiwidad

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[SrMi]

Apologies to @PeterKelly, but I promise there will be no more posts about this topic in this thread.

5 minutes ago, kiwidad said:

How exactly do you mean ISO is applied afterward? Is the sensors light sensitivity a constant or does it change?

The sensor sensitivity is constant, except for the dual conversion gain point.

7 minutes ago, kiwidad said:

The Sensitivity (ISO) of the sensor is a product of gain and thus it is fixed at time of exposure by a setting on the camera, so the exposure consists of ISO, shutter and aperture recording scene lighting

Once the exposure has finished and the data has been read from the sensor, ISO has not played a role in generating data yet.

Only during sensor data processing does the ISO setting play a role.

11 minutes ago, kiwidad said:

ISO determines the range of recorded light striking the sensor that is captured!

ISO determines the range of raw data stored in the DNG but does not influence how the sensor records light.

As my last contribution to this topic in this thread, I suggest the following reading:

The Unbearable Lightness of Mystic "Exposure" Triangle

[kiwidad]

28 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Apologies to @PeterKelly, but I promise there will be no more posts about this topic in this thread.

The sensor sensitivity is constant, except for the dual conversion gain point.

Once the exposure has finished and the data has been read from the sensor, ISO has not played a role in generating data yet.

Only during sensor data processing does the ISO setting play a role.

ISO determines the range of raw data stored in the DNG but does not influence how the sensor records light.

As my last contribution to this topic in this thread, I suggest the following reading:

The Unbearable Lightness of Mystic "Exposure" Triangle

I am too old to spend the time on this drivel. 

Interesting read and a very interesting way to describe something.

at the end of the day regardless of exactly how it is on a scientist's  bench. ISO regardless of how you redefines its meaning , affects the collection of light seen at differing intensities just like film did and those intensities are the result of exposure to light modified by shutter speed and aperture.

The sensitivity "perceived" as the sensor is resultant from increasing the"perceived" sensitivity of photo sites by "gain" or "amplification" if you wish. Just like increasing the level of signal from a microphone with gain introduces an amplification of  "noise" increasing the "perceived" sensitivity of photo sites introduces noise. 

Whatever you want to believe the science under the hood is, ISO aperture and shutter speeds all work like film except you now can change film mid roll!

 

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, PeterKelly said:

Any chance of getting this thread back to my original topic …….?

Isn't the conclusion that there is a bug in M11 metering that occasionally overexposes the image?

I don't know whether the bug is related to Auto ISO or general metering, i.e., does it also appear with fixed ISO in A mode?

The issue occurs too rarely for me to change anything, but an image review after each shot can catch it.

If you shoot mainly with the rangefinder and without reviewing the images, you could switch to fully manual and let the ISO trail. That way, you do not need to adjust the ISO for each shot as long as the ISO setting does not clip your highlights. That works for higher ISOs.

[PeterKelly]

It hasn’t happened so far with fixed ISO although I have only shot about 50 images this way. I shoot with the rangefinder but this problem has turned me into a serial chimper so I can keep tabs on it 🙂

 

i would like to report it to Leica so that they are aware that the firmware update hasn’t completely fixed it. Is there a preferred way to do this?

 

 

[SrMi]

12 minutes ago, PeterKelly said:

It hasn’t happened so far with fixed ISO although I have only shot about 50 images this way. I shoot with the rangefinder but this problem has turned me into a serial chimper so I can keep tabs on it 🙂

 

i would like to report it to Leica so that they are aware that the firmware update hasn’t completely fixed it. Is there a preferred way to do this?

I sent some bugs to technicalinfo@leicacamerausa.com, but people report that you can do it from the Leica Fotos app.

[PeterKelly]

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Thanks I will give that a try- its a frustrating bug (as are the freezes) but I am enjoying the camera - the files are excellent and a joy to work on

[PeterKelly]

I just sent the following email to the address you suggested - it will be interesting to see if and what response I get.

 

I have recently purchased a used M11 serial number XXXXXXXX. I am enjoying the camera but am frustrated with the following two issues that are occurring on a regular basis and which I was led to believe had been fixed in recent firmware updates.

The first issue is that the camera sporadically over exposes an image when using manual aperture and shutter and Auto ISO. Two consecutive images will have markedly different ISO levels resulting in a “blown” exposure. For example the first image will be at the chosen aperture and shutter settings and an ISO of 160. The very next image of the same scene with the same aperture and shutter speed will be at ISO 1000 and be completely “blown” The next image of the same scene at the same settings will return to an appropriate ISO value and be correctly exposed.  This occurs sporadically but regularly. The worst occurrence of this was a shoot last week where 12 of the 260 exposures were “blown". Today was a bit better with 2 “blown" shots in a bout 60 images. I have not been able to establish much of a pattern but the issue does seem to occur in scenes that are high contrast.

The second issue is that I am experiencing “freezes” when shooting. I understood that a recent firmware update was meant to fix the problem but I know from the Leica forums that other people are also still having this issue.. In my case it has happened on 2 of my 5 shoots with the camera and yesterday it happened 3 times in about 20 shots. The solution of course is to remove and reinstall the battery and this worked so far for me.

I would appreciate knowing is Leica is aware of these issues and working on a fix.
 

[crons]

15 hours ago, SrMi said:

Once the exposure has finished and the data has been read from the sensor, ISO has not played a role in generating data yet.

Only during sensor data processing does the ISO setting play a role.

This statement "Once the exposure has finished and the data has been read from the sensor, ISO has not played a role in generating data yet. Only during sensor data processing does the ISO setting play a role" is not entirely correct.

ISO, aperture, and shutter speed together determine exposure. When a photo is taken, the sensor collects light, and ISO determines how much to amplify this signal. This amplification occurs during the exposure phase, not just in post-processing. The amplified signal is then read from the sensor and processed to produce the final image. Thus, ISO influences the data during exposure and continues to affect the image during processing.

15 hours ago, SrMi said:

The sensor sensitivity is constant, except for the dual conversion gain point.

This is mostly correct. The sensor's base sensitivity remains constant, but ISO adjusts the amplification of the captured signal. The dual conversion gain point refers to a switch in sensor operation to optimize performance, improving dynamic range and reducing noise at higher ISOs.

 

15 hours ago, SrMi said:

ISO determines the range of raw data stored in the DNG but does not influence how the sensor records light.

Your statement is misleading. ISO does influence how the sensor's signal is amplified during exposure, affecting both brightness and noise levels in the final image. It doesn't just determine the range of raw data stored in the DNG.

[crons]

13 hours ago, PeterKelly said:

It hasn’t happened so far with fixed ISO although I have only shot about 50 images this way. I shoot with the rangefinder but this problem has turned me into a serial chimper so I can keep tabs on it 🙂

 

i would like to report it to Leica so that they are aware that the firmware update hasn’t completely fixed it. Is there a preferred way to do this?

 

 

Badically, we are now back to many pages ago when I said to go fully manual and set your ISO manually. 

I see you wrote to Leica and can assure you there is nothing they can do about this or the lock ups. Both issues, the overexposure and the lockup, were already specifically addressed in updates that were supposed to fix them and they're not. At least not in your camera. I'm afraid you'll have to live with it. 

My guess is eventually you will grow tired of this and sell the camera. Which is what I was warning another guy who asked what to check when buying a used M11. 

[PeterKelly]

Thanks for the advice but I will continue to expect Leica to work on solving this. This camera and most, if not all cameras, are sold with Auto ISO as a feature and it’s not unreasonable to expect it to work properly. 

 

 

 

 

 

[crons]

21 minutes ago, PeterKelly said:

Thanks for the advice but I will continue to expect Leica to work on solving this. This camera and most, if not all cameras, are sold with Auto ISO as a feature and it’s not unreasonable to expect it to work properly. 

 

 

 

 

 

You're 100% right. and It does on the M10R. A lot of M11 users sold their camera just because they got tired of it not working properly. And to this day as you can see it's still not. I'm not sure what they can do with yours specifically. Even if they take it away from you they're sporadic issues. I dont think this is fixable on this camera. It may be some sort of hardware fault. Who knows. At this point their fixes aren't working on this. Other than going through it with a microscope and testing out each part and all the cables and connections and reinstalling a firmware and testing it for days and days with an expert who will take your camera for a while to see if it works. I don't see them doing that. 

It's one of those cases where if the customer was really angry maybe they'll offer a new camera at a discount. 

Edited July 4, 2024 by crons

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, crons said:

You're 100% right. and It does on the M10R. A lot of M11 users sold their camera just because they got tired of it not working properly. And to this day as you can see it's still not. I'm not sure what they can do with yours specifically. Even if they take it away from you they're sporadic issues. I dont think this is fixable on this camera. It may be some sort of hardware fault. Who knows. At this point their fixes aren't working on this. Other than going through it with a microscope and testing out each part and all the cables and connections and reinstalling a firmware and testing it for days and days with an expert who will take your camera for a while to see if it works. I don't see them doing that. 

It's one of those cases where if the customer was really angry maybe they'll offer a new camera at a discount. 

Even with those issues, I consider the M11 the best digital M. My M10-R to M8 are being neglected :(.

Based on my forum readings, only a few M11 owners gave up on M11.

[PeterKelly]

I think the M11 issues are more troublesome for Pros particular on high pressure shoots like weddings. Nothing I shoot is critical so I can afford to me a bit more understanding and patient although my wife would tell you that patience is not my strong suit……

I was an early adopter of the M8 and ended up feeling that I was an unpaid beta tester for Leica - still I survived that und enjoyed the camera for a few years

[lct]

2 hours ago, PeterKelly said:

This camera and most, if not all cameras, are sold with Auto ISO as a feature and it’s not unreasonable to expect it to work properly. 

+1 and auto iso has been offered on all digital M's since the M8 IIRC. Being mentioned in Leica specs it is supposed to work flawlessly.

[hdmesa]

@crons go over to DPR medium format forum and post about ISO. Jim Kasson and others will reeducate you with regard to how ISO works on digital cameras.

Film-based thinking refuses to die it seems.

That said, the true technical nature of how ISO is applied is largely irrelevant information for most of us unless: we’re trying to squeeze out that last little bit of sensor performance, and we don’t mind doing mental gymnastics every time we calculate exposure for a given sensor.

[crons]

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

@crons go over to DPR medium format forum and post about ISO. Jim Kasson and others will reeducate you with regard to how ISO works on digital cameras.

Film-based thinking refuses to die it seems.

Your suggestion is noted, but the principles of ISO and its impact on digital photography are well-documented and understood by many experienced photographers. ISO adjusts the amplification of the sensor's signal, affecting both brightness and noise levels in the final image. If you need a refresher, perhaps a visit to DPR yourself could help clarify these basics for you.

2 hours ago, hdmesa said:

That said, the true technical nature of how ISO is applied is largely irrelevant information for most of us unless: we’re trying to squeeze out that last little bit of sensor performance, and we don’t mind doing mental gymnastics every time we calculate exposure for a given sensor

While casual photographers might not need deep technical knowledge of ISO, understanding its impact on exposure and image quality is crucial for consistent results. In my experience, I set ISO at the beginning of a shoot and then focus on other settings, ensuring optimal photos without constant adjustments. I'm not constantly changing cameras—I only have one. This has allowed me to learn the best ISO for a given lighting situation and understand how my camera will behave.

Edited July 4, 2024 by crons

[crons]

5 hours ago, lct said:

+1 and auto iso has been offered on all digital M's since the M8 IIRC. Being mentioned in Leica specs it is supposed to work flawlessly.

Good luck to the OP fixing it. But in the meantime, and after pages and pages of this, he'll have to do what I said if he doesn't want to experience it again. All roads lead to what Crons said from the beginning. 

5 hours ago, SrMi said:

Even with those issues, I consider the M11 the best digital M. My M10-R to M8 are being neglected :(.

Based on my forum readings, only a few M11 owners gave up on M11.

It's great to hear that you find the M11 to be the best digital M. Each model certainly has its strengths. Personally, I've found that sticking with one camera has allowed me to fully understand and optimize its settings, especially ISO, for different lighting conditions. If others are having issues with their M11, it might be helpful for them to take the time to really get to know their camera as well.

Considering that only about 1-5% of a product's user base typically posts on internet forums, it's alarming to see the number of issues reported on the Leica M11 forum, suggesting potential concerns among a significant subset of users. This would certainly make me cautious about buying a used M11, as there could be a higher likelihood that the previous owner sold it due to unresolved issues.

Edited July 4, 2024 by crons

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[crons]

5 hours ago, PeterKelly said:

I think the M11 issues are more troublesome for Pros particular on high pressure shoots like weddings. Nothing I shoot is critical so I can afford to me a bit more understanding and patient although my wife would tell you that patience is not my strong suit……

I was an early adopter of the M8 and ended up feeling that I was an unpaid beta tester for Leica - still I survived that und enjoyed the camera for a few years

I agree. And this is what I said also. You'll enjoy this camera for a while. You'll get used to this. Then you'll sell it and it'll still have these problems. They'll just be inherited by the next owner. 

[hdmesa]

49 minutes ago, crons said:

Your suggestion is noted, but the principles of ISO and its impact on digital photography are well-documented and understood by many experienced photographers. ISO adjusts the amplification of the sensor's signal, affecting both brightness and noise levels in the final image. If you need a refresher, perhaps a visit to DPR yourself could help clarify these basics for you.

While casual photographers might not need deep technical knowledge of ISO, understanding its impact on exposure and image quality is crucial for consistent results. In my experience, I set ISO at the beginning of a shoot and then focus on other settings, ensuring optimal photos without constant adjustments. I'm not constantly changing cameras—I only have one. This has allowed me to learn the best ISO for a given lighting situation and understand how my camera will behave.

Exactly the response I expected 🤡