M11 intermittent over exposure

[crons]

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2 hours ago, SrMi said:

I use Auto ISO on SL3, Q3, and M11, and except for the rare buggy behavior on M11, Auto ISO performs very predictably (same as any other automatic behavior, A or S mode with fixed ISO). The reported overexposure is due to a bug in M11, not Auto ISO functionality. 

No automatic behavior is predictable. If you can predict it then choose it yourself. 

Edited July 2, 2024 by crons

[SrMi]

7 minutes ago, crons said:

No automatic behavior is predictable. If you can predict it then choose it yourself. 

Your beef is with automatic vs manual mode, not with Auto ISO alone.

 

[PeterKelly]

This seems to have gone off into a bit of a tangent... lots of advice on shooting modes but not adding much overexposure issue.

Here is my $0.02 worth ... I am a 75 year old relic who has been shooting pretty consistently for over 50 years.I obviously cut my teeth on manual everything but I have always been keen to embrace technology when it either improved what I am trying to accomplish or made it easier. I was an early digital adopter and have shot Nikon, Fuji and some Leica digital cameras (M8 Q2M Q3 and now M11) since 2002. Auto ISO is an excellent tool in my opinion as it lets me take care of the things that affect my image (aperture and shutter speed) whilst tending to the exposure issue for me. I first started using it for wildlife and more recently street photography. For me it's a bit like ABS brakes - I managed without them but I am glad they are in my car and some of my motorcycles.

Anyway back to the intermittent overexposure issue - today was much better in manual/auto ISO. I shot 243 shots and there is one that's very overexposed and perhaps two that are significantly  underexposed (shot in sequence with the same settings as the proceeding image that's perfectly exposed) . If this performance keeps up I will be well satisfied but obviously I need to do more testing.

I had my first freezes today - in fact three in fairly rapid succession- so I guess I have officially joined the M11 club......

[crons]

27 minutes ago, PeterKelly said:

today was much better in manual/auto ISO

Sort of an oxymoron. If it’s manual it is manual. If it’s on auto it’s on auto. 

 

27 minutes ago, PeterKelly said:

one that's very overexposed and perhaps two that are significantly  underexposed (shot in sequence with the same settings as the proceeding image that's perfectly exposed). 
 

Auto ISO is an excellent tool in my opinion as it lets me take care of the things that affect my image (aperture and shutter speed) whilst tending to the exposure issue for me.

It’s what happens on auto. Try just choosing your iso and leave it alone. Don’t let it jump on its own all over the place. 
 

this is your issue. You believe that exposure is about iso and you can leave the camera to expose it. This isn’t correct. Exposure is all 3 things. You’re trying to disconnect aperture and shutter speed from your exposure of the image which is completely wrong. If you want it to be consistent then follow my advice. 

Edited July 3, 2024 by crons

[SrMi]

28 minutes ago, crons said:

It’s what happens on auto. Try just choosing your iso and leave it alone. Don’t let it jump on its own all over the place. 

Fixed ISO is still automatic in A mode.

32 minutes ago, crons said:

this is your issue. You believe that exposure is about iso and you can leave the camera to expose it. This isn’t correct. Exposure is all 3 things. You’re trying to disconnect aperture and shutter speed from your exposure of the image which is completely wrong. If you want it to be consistent then follow my advice. 

ISO is not part of the exposure; it is applied after exposure. The exposure consists of shutter speed, aperture, and scene lighting.

ISO is mainly responsible for the image brightness, which can blow the highlights if set or computed incorrectly.

[crons]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

Fixed ISO is still automatic in A mode.

ISO is not part of the exposure; it is applied after exposure. The exposure consists of shutter speed, aperture, and scene lighting.

ISO is mainly responsible for the image brightness, which can blow the highlights if set or computed incorrectly.

No A mode. Forget A mode. I'm not sure how else to say it. 

Thanks for explaining the ISO. I had no idea. 😀 

ISO is set before taking a photo and determines the sensor's sensitivity to light during exposure, so it cannot be applied afterward.

Let me explain it so you can understand. But you probably won't. 

ISO is a key component of exposure in photography. Exposure is determined by three main settings: ISO, aperture, and shutter speed. 

-ISO controls the sensitivity of the camera's sensor to light. A lower ISO value (e.g., 100 or 200) means less sensitivity and is typically used in bright conditions, while a higher ISO value (e.g., 800 or 1600) increases sensitivity and is used in low-light conditions.

- Aperture controls the size of the lens opening, affecting the amount of light that enters the camera and the depth of field.

- Shutter Speed controls the duration for which the camera's sensor is exposed to light.

Together, these three settings form the exposure triangle, and adjusting them allows photographers to achieve the desired exposure for their images.

Edited July 3, 2024 by crons

[SrMi]

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35 minutes ago, crons said:

ISO is set before taking a photo and determines the sensor's sensitivity to light during exposure, so it cannot be applied afterward.

Oh my god …. Nooooo!

ISO does not change sensors sensitivity to light.

Exposure triangle has been debunked as nonsense so many times that it is not fun anymore.

[crons]

28 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Oh my god …. Nooooo!

ISO does not change sensors sensitivity to light.

Exposure triangle has been debunked as nonsense so many times that it is not fun anymore.

Called it 😅

Actually, ISO is a fundamental part of the exposure triangle, and while it doesn’t change the sensor’s physical sensitivity, it amplifies the signal from the sensor, affecting the brightness of the image during exposure.

Saying ISO controls the sensitivity of the camera's sensor to light is a simplified way of explaining that it amplifies the signal from the sensor to adjust brightness, making it an essential aspect of the exposure process.

Dismissing the exposure triangle shows a fundamental misunderstanding of photography basics, which is probably why you can't get away from that letter A on the dials. 

Edited July 3, 2024 by crons

[lct]

1 hour ago, crons said:

[...] Dismissing the exposure triangle shows a fundamental misunderstanding of photography basics [...]

« You believe that exposure is about iso and you can leave the camera to expose it. This isn’t correct » (link).
« ISO is a fundamental part of the exposure triangle » (link).
Sorry to quote you this way but i feel hard to understand you here. If iso is a part of exposure, as you state it above, exposure is about iso don't you think so? Or if exposure is not about iso, as you state it too, how can iso be a fundamental part of exposure then? English is not my mother language so i may be missing something.

[andybarton]

If you change the ISO rating, then the amount of light required to record a correct exposure (whatever that is), changes.

If you think back to film days, the amount of light required to correctly expose a 50 ASA/ISO film is completely different from the amount required for an 800ASA/ISO. This is no different from using a digital camera.

ISO rating, shutter speed and aperture all contribute to a correctly exposed image.

[crons]

18 minutes ago, lct said:

« You believe that exposure is about iso and you can leave the camera to expose it. This isn’t correct » (link).
« ISO is a fundamental part of the exposure triangle » (link).
Sorry to quote you this way but i feel hard to understand you here. If iso is a part of exposure, as you state it above, exposure is about iso don't you think so? Or if exposure is not about iso, as you state it too, how can iso be a fundamental part of exposure then? English is not my mother language so i may be missing something.

Exposure is determined by ISO, aperture, and shutter speed together. ISO amplifies the sensor's signal, affecting image brightness, and is thus a fundamental part of the exposure process. Misunderstanding this shows a lack of basic photography knowledge.

6 minutes ago, andybarton said:

If you change the ISO rating, then the amount of light required to record a correct exposure (whatever that is), changes.

If you think back to film days, the amount of light required to correctly expose a 50 ASA/ISO film is completely different from the amount required for an 800ASA/ISO. This is no different from using a digital camera.

ISO rating, shutter speed and aperture all contribute to a correctly exposed image.

You're absolutely correct. Changing the ISO rating alters the amount of light needed for a correct exposure, just like it did with different film speeds. It's a basic principle of photography that ISO, along with shutter speed and aperture, directly impacts exposure.

Denying this shows a lack of understanding of fundamental photographic principles.

[lct]

So this discussion boils down to what exactly the word "exposure" means, does it include iso or not, if i understand correctly.

Edited July 3, 2024 by lct

[andybarton]

ISO is one of the factors in recording a correct exposure.

If you shoot at 125th at f8 on ISO 100, the result might be a correctly exposed image. If you shoot at 125th at f8 on ISO 2000, the result will be an over exposed image.

With digital files you can alter the exposure in your computer software, but it doesn't give the same results as correctly exposing an image in the first place. Part of the fun and skill of photography is knowing what the correct exposure should be.

Ansel Adams wrote a whole book on this subject.

[crons]

49 minutes ago, lct said:

So this discussion boils down to what exactly the word "exposure" means, does it include iso or not, if i understand correctly.

Exposure in photography refers to the cumulative effect of light intensity and duration on the camera sensor, controlled by ISO, aperture, and shutter speed settings—basic knowledge in photography that shouldn't be disputed.

ISO in photography affects the light intensity on a sensor by amplifying the signal captured at the moment the photo is taken (not after), immediately influencing the brightness of the resulting image.

The overexposures with the Leica M11 may not necessarily be a firmware issue but could instead stem from relying on auto settings, where the camera might misjudge the necessary ISO, aperture, and shutter speed settings for correct exposure.

Edited July 3, 2024 by crons

[andybarton]

I have never used auto ISO on my cameras. I always feel the need to be in control of all the variables.

[crons]

7 minutes ago, andybarton said:

I have never used auto ISO on my cameras. I always feel the need to be in control of all the variables.

You're absolutely right—I used to depend on auto ISO until I committed to using all manual settings. Since then, I've never set any dial on my Leica M to 'A' again. Taking full control of all variables has been a game-changer for my photography. For anyone struggling with overexposed images, try manual settings (with every dial) if resorting to firmware updates didn't resolve your issues. It could make a significant difference.

Saying "manual with auto ISO" is an oxymoron because it implies relinquishing manual control over ISO, contradicting the essence of manual photography where all settings are consciously adjusted by the photographer.

Edited July 3, 2024 by crons

[lct]

Auto iso is not a novelty. Been using it for almost 20 years. Especially auto iso M mode. In that mode, i am free to change apertures and shutter speeds the way i prefer and i use isos as an exposure factor but there are theories explaining that exposure is something else if i understand well. Don't ask me more, theories are not my forte. Some good colleagues here are much better than me at explaining that.

Edited July 3, 2024 by lct

[PeterKelly]

This thread has veered off track and become focused on exposure and shooting methods.

i also have used Auto ISO for many years for certain shooting situations with many cameras including Leicas an it has worked very well. Despite all the opinions expressed I would like to continue using it. My new (to me) M11 is occasionally overexposing images and, as I have set the aperture and shutter speed, it is doing so by boosting the ISO several stops. 
 

I believe there was a firmware up that was supposed to fix this but it obviously hasn’t worked in all cases. I would like to make Leica aware of this issue. Is there a preferred way of contacting them?

[SrMi]

3 hours ago, andybarton said:

If you change the ISO rating, then the amount of light required to record a correct exposure (whatever that is), changes.

If you think back to film days, the amount of light required to correctly expose a 50 ASA/ISO film is completely different from the amount required for an 800ASA/ISO. This is no different from using a digital camera.

ISO rating, shutter speed and aperture all contribute to a correctly exposed image.

That is true for JPEGs but not DNGs. I am referring to DNG shooting.

ISO implementation and use in film is completely different from digital.

ISO setting in digital can sometimes be implemented as a simple meta tag that instructs post processors to brighten the image. In that case, setting ISO too high does not matter except for the initial brightness of the image.

By correct exposure you mean image with correct brightness. An “underexposed/darker” image is still correctly exposed as long as you do not blow relevant highlights.

Etc.

Understanding the correct role of ISO is essential to proper usage of the camera, but proper education should occur in the technical forum, which very few visit anyway.

I have an increasing suspicion that we live here on LUF in an ivory tower where we rely on myths and outdated knowledge to work with our tools. That does not prevent us to make great images, but is still sad.

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[SrMi]

2 hours ago, crons said:

You're absolutely right—I used to depend on auto ISO until I committed to using all manual settings. Since then, I've never set any dial on my Leica M to 'A' again. Taking full control of all variables has been a game-changer for my photography. For anyone struggling with overexposed images, try manual settings (with every dial) if resorting to firmware updates didn't resolve your issues. It could make a significant difference.

The overexposure issue with Auto ISO or automatic mode is a bug in M11, it is not something that occurs in other Ms, SLs, or Qs.

2 hours ago, crons said:

Saying "manual with auto ISO" is an oxymoron because it implies relinquishing manual control over ISO, contradicting the essence of manual photography where all settings are consciously adjusted by the photographer.

Some call manual mode setting with Auto ISO “Misomatic” mode as it is clearly not manual mode. Still, it is one of the most powerful modes available on contemporary cameras.