Voigtlander Nokton 35/1.2 Aspherical II Leica M + Leica M240 - The problem of poor results.

[jarekzon]

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M Street Photographer - Thanks for taking me seriously. I have already written to the service, let's see what they reply.

[fotografr]

1 hour ago, jarekzon said:

I'm not an expert, but even I know it's not a problem with the sensor, man, don't be stubborn. Probably, it will be a problem with the rangefinder.

The fact that the is no focus problem with the 50/1.5 but there is a problem with the 35/1.2 strongly suggests to me that there is a problem with the bayonet mount on the 35. The Sony does not use the same proprietary roller arm for rangefinder focusing as the M Leica so it's conceivable the lens could work properly on one camera and not on the other. If the infinity focus on your M240 is correct on the 50, it should also be correct on the 35 and any other M mount lens. If possible, my suggestion would be to return the 35/1.2 in exchange for a different copy. 

I've used a variety of fast Voigtlander lenses on several different M bodies, including M240, M9, M9M, M10, M10-P, M10-R and M10M. I have never had focusing problems with any of them.

Edited June 3, 2024 by fotografr

[Xavier]

1 hour ago, M Street Photographer said:

Or as I wrote, there is something wrong with the bayonet of the 35.12, where the infinite roller is located.If the camera was misaligned in the infinity setting, there would also be problems with the 50 mm at infinity.

 

Indeed, based on the description of the problem, I would expect a mount issue with the 35 is the most likely culprit. It could just be that the moving part in the back of the lens that is making the mechanical connection with the rangefinder mechanism (I am not sure how this part is called). I had this problem myself when I took a lens apart to try to put a flange with the coding engraving (terrible idea) and put it back together slightly off. Very surprising, but basic mechanical issue.

[RexGig0]

The term “tolerance stacking” just re-entered the “recall” part of my brain’s memory. I learned it when dealing with something unrelated to photography, some time in the past. One normally expects tolerance stacking to become a problem when a greater number of components are involved, but, that is not always the case. Two components, each at differing extreme ends of the tolerance spectrum, may cancel each other’s variation, in a complementary way. Adding an item, or replacing one item with a different item, can result in an out-of-specification situation occurring.

[3D-Kraft.com]

If it is a problem with the viewfinder coupling, could easily be checked. Just try to focus the 35/1.2 V2 with the live view in full magnification at f/2.8 or f/4. Also with this aperture you should reach more details when focused correctly, than your M 240 sensor can resolve.

If you only can get "close to sharp", it looks like the point where you cant go further is reached too early. In that case it is a problem with the mount of the lens. If you can get it sharp in full live view magnification and still see a split image in the optical view finder, than it is a problem with the calibration of either the lens or the camera. If other lenses work as expected, it is propably not the camera.

The reason, why you can get the 35/1.2 V2 lens sharp at infinity on the Sony may be caused by tolerances of the M-mount to E-mount adapter. If it is a cheap one, there may be tolerances that allow you to go "further than infinity" with it, which may cause that irritating situation.

Edited June 3, 2024 by 3D-Kraft.com

[jaapv]

26 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

If it is a problem with the viewfinder coupling, could easily be checked. Just try to focus the 35/1.2 V2 with the live view in full magnification at f/2.8 or f/4. Also with this aperture you should reach more details when focused correctly, than your M 240 sensor can resolve.

If you only can get "close to sharp", it looks like the point where you cant go further is reached too early. In that case it is a problem with the mount of the lens. If you can get it sharp in full live view magnification and still see a split image in the optical view finder, than it is a problem with the calibration of either the lens or the camera. If other lenses work as expected, it is propably not the camera.

The reason, why you can get the 35/1.2 V2 lens sharp at infinity on the Sony may be caused by tolerances of the M-mount to E-mount adapter. If it is a cheap one, there may be tolerances that allow you to go "further than infinity" with it, which may cause that irritating situation.

Good summary. Thanks

[hansvons]

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7 hours ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

The reason, why you can get the 35/1.2 V2 lens sharp at infinity on the Sony may be caused by tolerances of the M-mount to E-mount adapter. If it is a cheap one, there may be tolerances that allow you to go "further than infinity" with it, which may cause that irritating situation.

This.

[hansvons]

18 hours ago, jarekzon said:

I started to take a closer look at the problem and what I noticed is described below. There may be language errors, I'm not a native speaker.

I’m not a native speaker either. I don’t know if you’re using a translation tool, but if you do, everything will be translated, including language-specific rudeness, which may be acceptable in your language but not in English. I learned that when spending a year in the UK. English is a highly balancing language. Avoiding straight opinions, leaving doors open as long as possible, and being allergic towards rudeness is an inherent feature of Anglo-Saxon culture. 

That said, you got the answer:

Your M240’s range finder seems to be in working order because your 50mm properly focuses infinity.

Lens adapters, such as your M to E mount adapter are designed with some leeway to provide the user with higher tolerance. You can focus the adapted lens beyond infinity (I certainly can do that with my M to L mount adapter). That's why you can focus the Nokton on your Sony despite being not able to do that with the M240.

I’d give another Nokton copy a go.

Happy shooting!!

[jarekzon]

The more I research about this problem, the more I am convinced that it is not a problem with the rangefinder, but with the lens. Two other lenses focus to infinity, but this Nokton does not. So the camera is probably fine. I checked this Nokton on Leica M2 and it doesn't focus at infinity either. So it's probably the lens that requires calibration if something like this is done. This is definitely not a problem of the production date of the Leica M240 camera :))). If I solve the problem, I will write here so that others who encounter this problem do not have to worry and do not think that the date of production of the camera has anything to do with it.

 

Avoiding rudeness !!!??? This makes me laugh a bit. Brits who come to Poland behave like the last bastards. What they do in Poland is considered the height of rudeness. They behave like the rubes.

Poles are honest and not hypocritical, they do not lie to each other like other nations do. Beautiful words, but they mean something else. It's better to say honestly what you think and not beat around the bush.

Edited June 4, 2024 by jarekzon

[lct]

15 minutes ago, jarekzon said:

[...] Two other lenses focus to infinity, but this Nokton does not. So the camera is probably fine. I checked this Nokton on Leica M2 and it doesn't focus at infinity either. So it's probably the lens that requires calibration [...]

Sounds logical indeed.

[John Robinson]

In my experience of using non-Leica lenses (Voigtlander, Zeiss, TTArtisan) on Leica M8, M9 and M9M, it takes quite a lot of trial and error to work out which of the Leica internal lens profiles works best with each lens.  The wider the angle, the more important to choose a good profile as the sensor has microlenses adjusted for the edges and the firmware enhances the adjustments.  In the end I replaced most of the non-Leica lenses with Leica equivalents as it is just so much easier but even then, some lenses (e.g. the Elmarit-M 2.8/21) struggle on the digital M.  Comparing the performance of a lens on an M body with a mirrorless tells more about the differences between the cameras (and quality of the adapters) than very much else.

Scanning through this thread, it strikes me that the problem may be with the lens or it may be a case of learning how to manage its strongly-curved field as there is a challenge to get a good balance between centre- and edge focus.  At 1.2 it is probably optimised to have the primary object of the image in the middle with deliberate fall-away at the edges.  For landscapes etc it may well need f8 or even f11 to get useful results.  The joy of digital is being able to shoot every scene at every f-stop and then study the images to get a feel for how the lens performs at each setting.  Using the rangefinder for focus may also reveal that the lens focus changes as the lens is stopped-down (assuming it is correct wide-open).  On mirrorless of course, focus is checked at the shooting aperture so this problem goes away.

Edited June 4, 2024 by John Robinson

[Martin B]

Actual user here of exactly this lens and camera combination - Leica M-E 240 with CV 35/1.2 II lens. I was reading through this multi-page thread, and I agree with earlier respondents that there might be an issue with your lens copy. I don't experience any of the issues with this camera/lens combination mentioned. Since it came up also in earlier posts, I have also used the 35/1.2 II for many years adapted to my Sony A7R very successfully. It was in 2015 actually the main reason why I bought it - the wider aperture didn't cause vignetting nor blurry corners on the Sony sensor stack. There is a bit of mustache distortion with this lens which can be easily corrected in PP. I love this lens wide open with its bokeh and for dim light photography. Used it often on my Leica M film cameras too - no difference in performance compared to digital.