Camera without serial number

[isunshine]

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If a camera has no serial number like this one below, what does that tell us? This particular one is an M6, so it should be on the hotshoe. 

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[a.noctilux]

Hot-shoe replaced ?

[isunshine]

When the hotshoe is replaced by Leica, do they always engrave a new one with the matching number and install that one? If so, I guess we can only conclude that the replacement was not done by Leica, correct?

[pippy]

53 minutes ago, isunshine said:

If a camera has no serial number like this one below, what does that tell us?

Nothing whatsoever unless we know why it doesn't have a serial number.

Things might have been replaced. The photograph might have been retouched. The camera might have been stolen and the evildoer has behaved in a nefarious way.

Here's a snap of my M2. Why is there no serial number on the top-plate?

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As I said; it tells us nothing unless we know more about the actual circumstances.

Philip.

Edited May 16, 2024 by pippy

[a.noctilux]

If done right at Wetzlar,

number is engraved, I have many Leica with "upgrades" and still have same number as older Leica before upgrades.

like this Leica I transformed to II sharing serial number of Leica I...

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[luigi bertolotti]

Not simply the serial number... red dot and LEICA M6 writing look obliterated (seems that there is some "covering" at front right)

 

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For some reason, someone has made this a very anonymous camera... I am even surprised that the Summicron IV has a normally readable front ring 😁

[250swb]

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I think they've cloned out to serial number which many people do on the internet, and used some tape on the logos to make the camera invisible, standard practice.

[isunshine]

Yeah, I've noticed the black tapes covering the writing too, but that's not relevant to my question (that's something anyone can do easily). Replacing the hotshoe without the serial number is something that Leica would never do, correct? This particular camera is to be auctioned at Flint by the way, and they claim that it came from a well-known photographer Peter Turnley.

[250swb]

14 minutes ago, isunshine said:

Yeah, I've noticed the black tapes covering the writing too, but that's not relevant to my question (that's something anyone can do easily). Replacing the hotshoe without the serial number is something that Leica would never do, correct? This particular camera is to be auctioned at Flint by the way, and they claim that it came from a well-known photographer Peter Turnley.

It sounds like you are having a hissy fit. If they claim as a well respected auction house it is a camera from the late Peter Turnley they are taking the responsibility for that claim. Don't bid on it if you don't trust them. I would add that Peter Turnley was heavy M user and finding some sort of repair or change to a well used camera wouldn't normally be a problem, they are like the one hundred year old broom, it's had three handles and five heads but it's still the same broom.

 

Edited May 16, 2024 by 250swb

[isunshine]

No hissy fit here. I'm just trying to understand why people would remove the serial number. By the way, I've found out that the camera is not actually from Peter. 

[250swb]

6 minutes ago, isunshine said:

No hissy fit here. I'm just trying to understand why people would remove the serial number. By the way, I've found out that the camera is not actually from Peter. 

Well that would be important information, do you care to share it or don't you care if it saves somebody on this forum from making a mistake??? It's pretty selfish to keep that to yourself. Have you notified Flint's?

Edited May 16, 2024 by 250swb

[pippy]

1 hour ago, isunshine said:

No hissy fit here. I'm just trying to understand why people would remove the serial number.

You know for a fact that "people" removed the serial number?

Show your proof.

P.

[sandro]

Other images show clearly that the user (Peter Turnley?) wanted to use the M6 in a stealth way, like many photographers do and did. The lack of a serial number does not really fit in that idea, but it is quite possible that at some point the hot shoe was replaced and perhaps on request the serial number was left out. Flint has a copy of the letter of sale from Turnley, so it would be intersting and important to know on what basis isunshine reports that the camera was in fact not owned by Peter Turnley.

Lex

[isunshine]

4 hours ago, sandro said:

it is quite possible that at some point the hot shoe was replaced and perhaps on request the serial number was left out

Yes, but Leica would never take that kind of request or would they?

Is there a serial number inside on the chassis for M6?

The copy of the sales letter that Flint holds is from Karin Turnley, who they claim to be Peter’s wife. I believe she was his brother’s ex-wife instead. I have made a request for the correction in the lot description to Flint, so hopefully it gets updated soon.

My interest on this topic is not about the ownership of this particular camera but rather psychology or motives of not having the serial number on anyone’s camera. As pippy has pointed out, there could be a number of illicit reasons, but can there be a good or valid reason for it? I can’t think of one.

 

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[Anbaric]

Odd that they should make a different claim in the auction listing ('Provenance: Includes a copy of the letter of sale from Peter Turnley'). As you say, the name of the ex-wife of his brother David Turnley (also a great photographer, of course) is Karin, as mentioned here. I suppose it might still have been Peter's camera at some point, but they can't say this if the letter is all they have and they are getting other things wrong. 

I imagine one of the well-known independent technicians could tell you if Leica supplies the hotshoe to them unengraved - if so, it might just have been replaced by a third party repairer and nobody bothered to engrave it. The auction photo doesn't look obviously manipulated (and why would they bother? - the serial number is visible on their other M6 lots).

Edited May 17, 2024 by Anbaric

[jaapv]

12 hours ago, isunshine said:

Yeah, I've noticed the black tapes covering the writing too, but that's not relevant to my question (that's something anyone can do easily). Replacing the hotshoe without the serial number is something that Leica would never do, correct? This particular camera is to be auctioned at Flint by the way, and they claim that it came from a well-known photographer Peter Turnley.

Anybody can replace a top plate, it is a question of a few screws (and, if needed a hot shoe as well, four more small screws) Such anonymous spare parts can be found on the internet from time to time.

[pippy]

7 hours ago, isunshine said:

...As pippy has pointed out, there could be a number of illicit reasons, but can there be a good or valid reason for it? I can’t think of one...

Actually, isunshine, I mentioned one illicit reason and there is a perfectly valid reason my M2 doesn't have a serial number; the top-plate is a NOS replacement-part and replacement top-plates - obviously - don't have any serial number when they are supplied. I'd guess that, as Anbaric mentions in post #15, if hot-shoes are available to buy by third-party repair-persons they would be similarly unmarked.

Interesting to see the sales letter for the camera and lens. 5000 ZAR in today's terms - allowing for inflation - works out as £298 / $377.

Dr. Ansary got a bit of a bargain...

Philip.

Edited May 17, 2024 by pippy

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, Anbaric said:

Odd that they should make a different claim in the auction listing ('Provenance: Includes a copy of the letter of sale from Peter Turnley'). As you say, the name of the ex-wife of his brother David Turnley (also a great photographer, of course) is Karin, as mentioned here. I suppose it might still have been Peter's camera at some point, but they can't say this if the letter is all they have and they are getting other things wrong. 

I imagine one of the well-known independent technicians could tell you if Leica supplies the hotshoe to them unengraved - if so, it might just have been replaced by a third party repairer and nobody bothered to engrave it. The auction photo doesn't look obviously manipulated (and why would they bother? - the serial number is visible on their other M6 lots).

As far as I know they used to supply them but stopped doing so quite some years ago.

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[willeica]

On 5/17/2024 at 1:20 PM, pippy said:

Dr. Ansary got a bit of a bargain..

I met Dr Afzal Ansary at the opening of the new Leica factory at Leitz Park in 2014. He told me that he had bought his first Leica in 1954 in Uganda. He is still heavily involved with the Royal Photographic Society and is an Honorary Professor at the University of Nottingham.

William 

[algrove]

On 5/16/2024 at 4:02 PM, isunshine said:

Yeah, I've noticed the black tapes covering the writing too, but that's not relevant to my question (that's something anyone can do easily). Replacing the hotshoe without the serial number is something that Leica would never do, correct? This particular camera is to be auctioned at Flint by the way, and they claim that it came from a well-known photographer Peter Turnley.

So ask P. Turnley. He can be emailed easily if you look for it.