M12 wishlist

[otto.f]

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On 4/5/2024 at 9:19 PM, Smogg said:

1. A small (1mm) protruding frame on the body around the rangefinder window to make it less likely to touch it with finger and less likely to clean it. Or just a small protruding edge to the left of the rangefinder window (if you look at the camera from the front).
2. IBIS, but while maintaining the current camera size. Maybe it will be enough for the developers to extend the mount another 1 mm.

3. Eye recognition assistance in EVF similar to Nikon Zf.

4. Clickable joystick like the SL in the center of the circle with arrows to the right of the screen instead of the button

5. 5Mp Visoflex

6. Buffer for 50+ frames

7. Optional EFCS.

8. Speed up recording on fast memory cards or use 256GB of built-in, but fast memory.

Funny that your wishes for a new M are all going into the direction of AI, whereas the digital M line started as a still manual camera with just a sensor in it instead of film.

But what surprises me the most is that you don’t mention the color handling of the M11 which is way below what may be expected from a camera with that price and which is the foremost problem that should be solved in the M12. At least for a significant part of Leica’s clients. 

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[Smogg]

54 minutes ago, otto.f said:

Funny that your wishes for a new M are all going into the direction of AI, whereas the digital M line started as a still manual camera with just a sensor in it instead of film.

But what surprises me the most is that you don’t mention the color handling of the M11 which is way below what may be expected from a camera with that price and which is the foremost problem that should be solved in the M12. At least for a significant part of Leica’s clients. 

My wishes regarding focus assistance apply only to EVF mode. I don't use this mode very often, but I think the help with eye detection in this mode would be useful.
I wouldn't say that I see a global problem with color in the M11, although I admit that I liked the colors on the M10-R better. There is a problem with correctly detecting the white balance, which causes magenta cast, which has to be removed in post-processing, this is of course annoying. I definitely wish the M12 had the same colors as the X2D (I bought this camera just because of the color, I wasn't aiming for 100MP, autofocus or medium format), but I think that would be asking too much of the M12 so I didn't mention it😀

Edited April 14, 2024 by Smogg

[jaapv]

I yet have to see an AWB that gets colours exactly right all the time. Which is logical as it depends on averaging the colours all over the image and running it through an algorithm, and all images are different in colour distribution. Maybe a consistent bias makes thing easier as it makes it less taxing to judge on the screen.

[evikne]

38 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I yet have to see an AWB that gets colours exactly right all the time. Which is logical as it depends on averaging the colours all over the image and running it through an algorithm, and all images are different in colour distribution. 

And on a more philosophical note: if we want the colors to be exactly the same as the ones we experience, the only reference we have is our brain. And how can we trust that what it interprets is always correct?

[lct]

4 hours ago, otto.f said:

But what surprises me the most is that you don’t mention the color handling of the M11 which is way below what may be expected from a camera with that price [...]

Never got any color problem in 2 years with my M11. Only issues i've seen seemed to come from photogs using Adobe softwares, which is not my case, or unable to set WB correctly, which is not my case either fortunately.

[ksrhee]

27 minutes ago, lct said:

Never got any color problem in 2 years with my M11. Only issues i've seen seemed to come from photogs using Adobe softwares, which is not my case, or unable to set WB correctly, which is not my case either fortunately.

I wouldn’t say the issue happens in all situations.  If it did, I would discovered it right away after I got the camera.  Idid not discover the issue with my 11P  even though I shot in many different conditions, but in one specific instance where I was taking the subject directly under the LED light.  

[lct]

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1 minute ago, ksrhee said:

I wouldn’t say the issue happens in all situations.  If it did, I would discovered it right away after I got the camera.  Idid not discover the issue with my 11P  even though I shot in many different conditions, but in one specific instance where I was taking the subject directly under the LED light.  

Never got this issue either but i don't use the M11's electronic shutter under LED light personally. Well known issue with any camera AFAIK. I'm working on it with a recently acquired Sigma FPL body which has an electronic shutter but also EIS, a feature the M11 is not fit with for unknown (to me) reason.

[Le Chef]

3 hours ago, ksrhee said:

in one specific instance where I was taking the subject directly under the LED light

Surely we all know that the color temperature under artificial light is different from daylight. The simplest thing is to adjust it in post so it looks natural to you.

[ksrhee]

26 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

Surely we all know that the color temperature under artificial light is different from daylight. The simplest thing is to adjust it in post so it looks natural to you.

Yes, we do.  The point is not to do manual WB or fix in post-processing.  For critical photos, I spend a lot of time adjusting, but for some, that's not the case and don't want to do so. That's the extra time I could spend on other areas.  I want to trust the camera to do a decent job, and my other cameras, including the Q3, did, but not the M11 . . .  Hopefully, if Leica knows this, it will get fixed in the future firmware.  

Edited April 14, 2024 by ksrhee

[lct]

Not sure what Leica is supposed to know. I just hope they change nothing but perhaps a tiny bit of red cast in the M11 color profile but wait and see...

[Le Chef]

1 hour ago, ksrhee said:

Yes, we do.  The point is not to do manual WB or fix in post-processing.  For critical photos, I spend a lot of time adjusting, but for some, that's not the case and don't want to do so. That's the extra time I could spend on other areas.  I want to trust the camera to do a decent job, and my other cameras, including the Q3, did, but not the M11 . . .  Hopefully, if Leica knows this, it will get fixed in the future firmware.  

The simplest solution is to create a preset in Lightroom that you can use whenever you process. You may need to do no more than just click on it.

[ksrhee]

1 hour ago, Le Chef said:

The simplest solution is to create a preset in Lightroom that you can use whenever you process. You may need to do no more than just click on it.

I really appreciate everyone's help, but no matter how you look at it, it is still an extra step, and I have to pay attention to it.  Given the inconsistencies I've seen, I can't apply the change en masse when I import the files either.  I think the best solution is for me is to use the manual setting for WB and, in critical situations, use the card until Leica fixes this issue.  BTW, I just tried it with the Ricoh GR III and no problem there either.  So, now I have 6 different cameras with AWB working fine in this situation and one that doesn't.  

Edited April 14, 2024 by ksrhee

[IkarusJohn]

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

I yet have to see an AWB that gets colours exactly right all the time. Which is logical as it depends on averaging the colours all over the image and running it through an algorithm, and all images are different in colour distribution. Maybe a consistent bias makes thing easier as it makes it less taxing to judge on the screen.

Not sure I understand the concept of “right” when it comes to photography.

[jaapv]

Well, one might suppose it means that the RGB values match those of the subject under the original light in a colour-managed workflow.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Le Chef said:

The simplest solution is to create a preset in Lightroom that you can use whenever you process. You may need to do no more than just click on it.

Or a camera profile to one's taste.

[IkarusJohn]

6 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Well, one might suppose it means that the RGB values match those of the subject under the original light in a colour-managed workflow.

To what end?  

[jaapv]

To create the colours that one envisages. The colour on conversion is just the starting point. 

[evikne]

I often use an ExpoDisc to capture an average of the ambient light. When setting the WB based on this, the colors usually match well with how I experienced them.

Edited April 14, 2024 by evikne

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[IkarusJohn]

Just now, jaapv said:

To create the colours that one envisages. 

That’s done in post. 

I’m not disagreeing about weird colours in bad lighting, Italian flag, IR issues or bad colour balance. Just questioning what “right” colour is. I don’t think it really exists. 

More critically, if you do get colours which approximate what you see, what’s the point?  Photography has never been about capturing “reality”. For me at least. 

It’s a serious question. 

[jaapv]

53 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

That’s done in post. 

I’m not disagreeing about weird colours in bad lighting, Italian flag, IR issues or bad colour balance. Just questioning what “right” colour is. I don’t think it really exists. 

More critically, if you do get colours which approximate what you see, what’s the point?  Photography has never been about capturing “reality”. For me at least. 

It’s a serious question. 

The initial colour is created in post by the DNG conversion, not specifically the camera. So yes, it is all about postprocessing. However to attain your vision and intended result it is practical and time saving to have a consistent starting point. But as that starting point is in the hands of the photographer it is not very useful to demand that the camera provide it. Especially as the default is so easily tweaked.