M12 wishlist

[Stevejack]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 minute ago, _leicaguru said:

For me is making the experience easier. The easiest and more automated for me it kills creativity. People have been taking photos on the M for 70 years without IBIS...And every photo imaginable have been taken with them. Adding IBIS fundamentally changes the experience of shooting a rangefinder for me. 

Digital changed the field though, and shooting on film is a little more forgiving than modern high megapixel sensors (even if it's just that we notice the effects of camera shake more).
IBIS is here nor there for me, I'll take it if I can get it but it wouldn't make me not buy a camera. I often turn it off at slower shutter speeds anyway because I want to bring in some of that blur. A picture taken handheld with a slow shutter speed should look like a picture taken handheld with a slow shutter speed, the imperfections are part of the charm IMO. It's very easy to loose a sense of energy in the picture when all of the imperfections are taken away.   So IBIS or not ,it can always be turned off...  I don't see a negative to the camera having it. 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Smogg]

33 minutes ago, _leicaguru said:

For me is making the experience easier. The easiest and more automated for me it kills creativity. People have been taking photos on the M for 70 years without IBIS...And every photo imaginable have been taken with them. Adding IBIS fundamentally changes the experience of shooting a rangefinder for me. 

The desire to have IBIS is quite reasonable due to the increased number of pixels and increased resolution of lenses. For film and 24 Mp IBIS is not so important, but for 40+ Mp it is very desirable, so as not to shorten the shutter speed in pursuit of sharp photography.

[_leicaguru]

18 minutes ago, Smogg said:

The desire to have IBIS is quite reasonable due to the increased number of pixels and increased resolution of lenses. For film and 24 Mp IBIS is not so important, but for 40+ Mp it is very desirable, so as not to shorten the shutter speed in pursuit of sharp photography.

Yes so the solution is to increase the shutter speed. It's another challenge. Personally I think they have gone way overboard with lenses that are too corrected and megapixels. The M was totally fine at 40MP. The problem the M11 ushered is that now they're in the spec race, which the Leica M is not supposed to be a part of. 

[_leicaguru]

49 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

Digital changed the field though, and shooting on film is a little more forgiving than modern high megapixel sensors (even if it's just that we notice the effects of camera shake more).
IBIS is here nor there for me, I'll take it if I can get it but it wouldn't make me not buy a camera. I often turn it off at slower shutter speeds anyway because I want to bring in some of that blur. A picture taken handheld with a slow shutter speed should look like a picture taken handheld with a slow shutter speed, the imperfections are part of the charm IMO. It's very easy to loose a sense of energy in the picture when all of the imperfections are taken away.   So IBIS or not ,it can always be turned off...  I don't see a negative to the camera having it. 

It's a necessity brought on by making the M way too complicated and now you're off to the races trying to compete with everyone else. The megapixel and uber corrected lenses is a never ending rabbit hole that the M should have never been a part of, but here we are. The M should go back to the 40MP sensor that was so nice.

These big megapixel numbers and super corrected lenses are for general purpose professional cameras and I think they have no place in a simple rangefinder. But people like new things and new toys so Im not going to win this one. Thankfully I got the perfect digital M which in my opinion is the M10R. Once that comes to a place where I have to get rid of it because it can no longer be fixed, then I will revert back to film and deal with a film M. The M10R is the last digital M I will ever buy. Well, except for owning an M10P briefly it is the only M I ever owned and will be the last. I want no part of the future of the digital M the way this is going... nor their new lenses. We are going to end up with fully automated, super high megapixel, uber corrected soulless general purpose Leica M's that just have a nostalgic look to the body but nothing else.

Edited February 3 by _leicaguru

[Stevejack]

6 minutes ago, _leicaguru said:

It's a necessity brought on by making the M way too complicated and now you're off to the races trying to compete with everyone else. The megapixel and uber corrected lenses is a never ending rabbit hole that the M should have never been a part of, but here we are. The M should go back to the 40MP sensor that was so nice.

These big megapixel numbers and super corrected lenses are for general purpose professional cameras and I think they have no place in a simple rangefinder. But people like new things and new toys so Im not going to win this one. Thankfully I got the perfect digital M which in my opinion is the M10R. Once that comes to a place where I have to get rid of it because it can no longer be fixed, then I will revert back to film and deal with a film M. The M10R is the last digital M I will ever buy. Well, except for owning an M10P briefly it is the only M I ever owned and will be the last. I want no part of the future of the digital M the way this is going... nor their new lenses. We are going to end up with fully automated, super high megapixel, uber corrected soulless general purpose Leica M's that just have a nostalgic look to the body but nothing else.

Leica's willingness to release cameras like the SL2-s and SL3-s made me think they might have done something similar with the M11...   It thought they might release a version with a 24mp sensor but they went down the road of putting 18/36/60mp options in the base M11 instead. 

The lens thing I can also understand but it's also super simple to find and use old lenses on the newer bodies. They're also re-releasing a lot of 'classic' lenses which is a smart move by Leica I think. 

[evikne]

Leica will never listen to my wishes anyway. All I can hope for is that they continue to make cameras I want, and that I can afford to buy it.

[costa43]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

43 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

Leica's willingness to release cameras like the SL2-s and SL3-s made me think they might have done something similar with the M11...   It thought they might release a version with a 24mp sensor but they went down the road of putting 18/36/60mp options in the base M11 instead. 

The lens thing I can also understand but it's also super simple to find and use old lenses on the newer bodies. They're also re-releasing a lot of 'classic' lenses which is a smart move by Leica I think. 

I think a 24mp SL2s sensor in an M makes sense, its a good sensor and If Leica can make the camera really fast to startup, keep it simple and price it lower than the madness of the M11 then it will sell well imo. I think Leica will have to find a way to offer a lower price entry point into M soon or it will slowly become even more of a niche product. 

Edited February 3 by costa43

[_leicaguru]

50 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

Leica's willingness to release cameras like the SL2-s and SL3-s made me think they might have done something similar with the M11...   It thought they might release a version with a 24mp sensor but they went down the road of putting 18/36/60mp options in the base M11 instead. 

The lens thing I can also understand but it's also super simple to find and use old lenses on the newer bodies. They're also re-releasing a lot of 'classic' lenses which is a smart move by Leica I think. 

This is the most interesting thing that Leica is doing. Out of all the new stuff I'm just interested in re-releases of old classic lenses. 

[MeleeGhillie]

58 minutes ago, _leicaguru said:

This is the most interesting thing that Leica is doing. Out of all the new stuff I'm just interested in re-releases of old classic lenses. 

would love to see a rigid reissue

[_leicaguru]

2 hours ago, MeleeGhillie said:

would love to see a rigid reissue

I've been eyeing the 28 Summaron for a couple of years. I don't use 28 much so I bought the 35 Cron instead. But if I have the funds I may go for it. 

The 8 elements is so ridiculous in the second hand market they should re-release it at a reasonable price. 

Edited February 3 by _leicaguru

[jonoslack]

6 hours ago, Calvin said:

On the EVF, it would be great to have EVF that simulates the rangefinder with focus patch (much larger and brighter) and also accurately laid out frame lines calculated based on actual range. At a flip of a switch, you can go to the typical mirrorless TTL look with focus peaking and even simulated focus patch 😀 Best of both worlds and actually improved over both.

 

Well - you can't have frame lines for a 50mm lens showing around the subject if you have a 50mm lens fitted (it can't see around the subject!)🫣. Frame Lines and EVFs are only possible if there is a crop (like the Q)

 

6 hours ago, Calvin said:

Startup time is also mentioned. I have missed fair share of shots to slow startup. My Z8 is almost instantaneous to M11. I think they can optimize the shutter open and close and keep curtain open more often to avoid having to wait for curtain to open. For M, I feel this wait is even more disruptive than for regular mirrorless because you expect the camera to be tactile whereas for mirrorless like the Z8, I keep it in silent mode all the time and I expect it to work like an electronic device.

 

No need ever to miss shots with the M11 - the battery life is so good, simply turn the camera on and switch off Standby - put it on EVF extended and turn off Live view. You can take pictures immediately with no wake up time.

 

6 hours ago, Calvin said:

and would it be time to introduce a new line of electronic M lenses that transmit EXIF and aperture info, maybe even add AF (oops) and VR? Nikon has had hybrid mechanical electronic F mount for a long time. Many would kill me if I mention any equipment and particularly lenses with electronics, so I just mention. Leica certainly would be happy for extended upgrade cycle for lenses.

 

Hang on a second - they have already done all of this - it's called an SL3!😂

All the best

Jono

[jonoslack]

7 hours ago, SrMi said:

I don't see how a "moving" sensor goes against what makes the M so special. Whether it moves (IBIS) or is fixed does not affect the camera's ergonomics, except that a fixed sensor makes sensor cleaning easier. What makes an M an M is the rangefinder, simplicity, M-mount, and size. Whether the sensor is CCD, CMOS, FSI, BSI, or stacked, and whether it moves or is fixed, does not influence the M experience.

 

5 hours ago, Smogg said:

The desire to have IBIS is quite reasonable due to the increased number of pixels and increased resolution of lenses. For film and 24 Mp IBIS is not so important, but for 40+ Mp it is very desirable, so as not to shorten the shutter speed in pursuit of sharp photography.

I think there are two points relevant here:

First of all I don't think it's necessary:

The high ISO on the M11 is so good that for all reasonable situations you can set the shutter speed to 4 times the focal length, (I managed 3 times shooting in candle light last night the resulting 12,500 ISO images are fine). That pretty much rules out any camera shake issues. . . . . . . .

Secondly it isn't a free lunch - there isn't room in an M body for a shutter and IBIS - so unless you are willing to either have a fatter camera or only electronic shutter you can't have IBIS.

All the best

Jono

[Gianfranco Piovano]

On 2/1/2025 at 1:14 AM, Jon Warwick said:

M12 wish list = more megapixels than 60mp, ie, progress towards 100mp. And make a Monochrom version of it too.

I print to 45” wide often from my M11 (and cut it down to 40”x30”’print). Image quality is immaculate at that print size off the M11, but I’d like the option to print even larger at the same image quality.

I think various aspects of the M11 such as the triple resolution DNGs could be extended to give flexibility if one doesn’t want the highest resolution DNG in an M12; and Leica Perspective Control would benefit from as much resolution as possible, given the partial crop from its correction. 

I fully agree.

the reason why I left modern digital camera and I went on Leica M11-P are:

1 - chance to avoid lens changing, just using the triple resolution of the sensor.

2- the Perpsective control available on the camera, and operative on any lens applied.

For my usage actually the main missing is the chance to mix digital zoom 1,3 x and 1,8 X with Perspective control (I do not understand why making availble on Q3 and not on M11P)!!

I like a lot the RF (when I was younger I did change from CANON EOS 650 - first real good autofocus- to Leica M4-p WITHOUT ANY ISSUE).

Also now, just 2 week after the change from Canon R6, I did only few shot missing to focus ... but I immediatly recognise it and shot again after focusing.

I am 62 and I consider M11 as my last camera: I do not like to run after continuous electronics upgrade: Leica fit perfectly with my mindset.

the only eventual future change for me, it could be if Leica would make a Q4 with this set-up:  Sensor 100 Mb, lens 24 fxx, zooming from 24 to 90 (using the sensor capacity to widen the zoon applicability but limiting its usage @ 24-28 to max 40-60Mb): 1 camera, no more lens changing, PC applicable to every lens, 24 as minimum lens (optimal would be 21 but ... I could live with only 24).

 

[_leicaguru]

The more I read this thread, the more depressed I get. 😅

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, _leicaguru said:

The more I read this thread, the more depressed I get. 😅

Don't be depressed. Leica have repeatedly reiterated their allegiance to the Rangefinder - and they quite understand many peoples love of simplicity (my M11-D is sitting on my desk). 

These discussions always tend towards a cross between a Hasselblad X2D and a Sony A1 (it used to be a Phase 1 and a Nikon D800). but Leica have shown themselves quite capable of ignoring this escalation!

On the other hand they have been incredibly imaginative with their individual cameras - I'm sure that they'll manage to produce your perfect rangefinder and still find ways of making the techno crew happy (if not by making some kind of 'do everything' camera).  (I'm in both camps by the way - just not in the same camera!)

All the best

Jono

[lct]

2 hours ago, jonoslack said:

The high ISO on the M11 is so good that for all reasonable situations you can set the shutter speed to 4 times the focal length, (I managed 3 times shooting in candle light last night the resulting 12,500 ISO images are fine). That pretty much rules out any camera shake issues

May i ask how you manage slow shutter speeds with the M11? Or do you use a tripod or another camera for that?

[evikne]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

(I'm in both camps by the way - just not in the same camera!)

Is this a hint of what we can expect from the M in the future? I am eagerly awaiting! 😉

[SrMi]

4 hours ago, jonoslack said:

 

I think there are two points relevant here:

First of all I don't think it's necessary:

The high ISO on the M11 is so good that for all reasonable situations you can set the shutter speed to 4 times the focal length, (I managed 3 times shooting in candle light last night the resulting 12,500 ISO images are fine). That pretty much rules out any camera shake issues. . . . . . . .

Secondly it isn't a free lunch - there isn't room in an M body for a shutter and IBIS - so unless you are willing to either have a fatter camera or only electronic shutter you can't have IBIS.

All the best

Jono

I agree that IBIS is not necessary for M12. However, sometimes I take my SL3 instead of M11 just because of IBIS.

Some of my good shots were done with IBIS in low light at metered ISO 3200 (e.g., Venice at night). Like you, I typically need a shutter speed of 4 times the focal length. I often use a shutter speed of half the focal length (or even slower) with IBIS. That is five stops of stabilization. A stabilized shot at metered ISO 3200 would translate into a non-stabilized shot of ISO 1,000,000 (ISO 50000, one stop underexposed), which cannot produce a usable image.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[IkarusJohn]

11 hours ago, evikne said:

Leica will never listen to my wishes anyway. All I can hope for is that they continue to make cameras I want, and that I can afford to buy it.

I’m not so sure.  Amongst all this nonsense about messing up the digital M with “features”, there are two things for you to consider - after the all singing all dancing M(240), Leica returned to sanity with the M10; and they still make the M-A (even as a special edition).

I hold out hope for an M version of some future horror-show camera that just has the best available sensor, not the most pixels, rangefinder, shutter metering, no LCD and no other fancy pants things. A new simplified M60 or M-D, if you will.

Sadly, it won’t be cheap …

[jrichie]

15 hours ago, _leicaguru said:

So the dream Leica M rangefinder is to kill the rangefinder and make it a common manual focus mirrorless camera.

yep for me it is, I don't care about the rangefinder - Leica Blasphemy !!