Are you on the level?

[erl]

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This problem has annoyed me for years! So many of my images, and those of others I see posted on the forum, are tilted a few degrees off level. Mostly noticeable with standard or longer lenses. WA lenses ten to 'hide' the effect because of distortion anyway. The variation is consistent and I am puzzled as to the cause. I know it is easily corrected in PP, but that is not the point. I keep asking myself, what is the cause. If I concentrate, I can avoid it, but concentration is better directed elsewhere usually.

Does anyone else notice this? It is not just my pics. I see in other works as well.

Simple examples to illustrate it below. Both full frame out of camera.

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[Guest]

Guilty as charged. In my case, the tilt goes in the opposite direction of your examples.

This is my theory: M cameras plus lenses (in my case, all silver chrome) are relatively heavy and don't offer the best grip. This creates a tendency to hold the camera lower on the right-hand-side than on the left-hand-side (from the photographer's point of view). This generates an horizon that tilts to the left (i.e., the ocean seems to leak out to the left side of the picture). 

Solution: the left hand should support the weight of the camera and lens, not the right hand. If I make an effort and deliberately try to remember this, then the problem is solved. Unfortunately, this hasn't become 2nd nature yet (even after 20 years of using M cameras).

Edited March 28, 2024 by Studienkamera

[Pintpot]

Same here

[BruceRH]

I am a frequent user of LR's Auto Level! 

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

Could it be that some of the frame lines in some people's cameras are not properly oriented?

I have not noticed this with my M3 of many years, regardless of which lens is being used.

Has anyone tried taking photos on a very solid tripod & using a cable release: With frame lines precisely positioned to follow the appropriate horizontal: And then compared that to the resulting images captured?

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited March 28, 2024 by Michael Geschlecht

[erl]

I feel better already, simply because others have noticed it. It is not just me!

Over nearly 70 years of using cameras, the same effect happens regardless of camera type.

In my case: Rolleiflex; Mamiyaflex; Hasselblad; Nikon; Leica. Many different models.

I think it must be a brain thing. The eyes response to the VF, with or without framelines.

Correction has always been easy, either in the darkroom, or on the computer.

[Michael Geschlecht]

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Hello John,

With multiple cameras also. That is very interesting.

You might try my suggestion of a tripod & see if the same "tilt" occurs.

It would be interesting to see what, if any, difference there might be.

Best Regards,

Michael

[erl]

In the past, I did a lot of studio work on tripod, mainly with Hasselblad. That was always 'perfect' because I needed to make multiple inspections through the VF to make minor adjustments to the subject. Potentially tedious but resulting in exact framing and composition.

The problem is definitely 'human' induced, in my case. I am sure it is connected with the way I handle the cameras.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello John,

Do you, by any chance, sometimes use varifocal eyeglass lenses?

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited March 28, 2024 by Michael Geschlecht

[250swb]

6 hours ago, Studienkamera said:

 

This is my theory: M cameras plus lenses (in my case, all silver chrome) are relatively heavy and don't offer the best grip. This creates a tendency to hold the camera lower on the right-hand-side than on the left-hand-side (from the photographer's point of view). This generates an horizon that tilts to the left (i.e., the ocean seems to leak out to the left side of the picture). 

 

I think it is exactly the opposite, SLR cameras are heavier than a rangefinder but the extra inertia makes them easier to hold steady, and at much slower speeds, and the accurate viewfinder helps line up verticals and horizontals as well. Inertia works not just by it being harder to move something heavier, but because it's the inner ear that affects balance and holding something a bit heavier can make you more receptive to balance. Rangefinders are relatively light cameras, so it's easier to accidentally move them away from being square to the subject and compounded by being able to see things beyond the frameline to distract the eye. 

It doesn't take much for a wonky horizon to be blindingly obvious to everybody except the photographer, and we've probably all done it thinking our camera is telling you everything at the point of exposure when it's your brain you should be listening to. I used to be a theatre photographer using both Leica M's and Nikon SLRs and it was much easier to line up the SLR square to a scene with no reference points in complete darkness surrounding the subject than a rangefinder camera I think because the rangefinder is a slightly detached view of the world. And while that works in your favour in other situations it remains a window you are looking through and not at the actual view via a prism.

[Mute-on]

I have observed exactly the same phenomenon, although seemingly more so on Leica M. Initially I was convinced it was attributable to my use of a soft release since my tilt tends to be to the right. I got rid of the soft release and concentrated on ‘squeezing’ the shutter release as opposed to ‘pushing’ it. Whether it was this or simply concentrating more on maintaining level, my tilt did improve.

Now I need glasses to focus so that’s another spanner in the works. I’m only ever about 1 degree off these days, so I’m not all that bothered. 

[erl]

6 hours ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello John,

Do you, by any chance, sometimes use varifocal eyeglass lenses?

Best Regards,

Michael

Michael I have used varifocals for years. Still do, but since cataract surgery, gratefully, I now use a 'naked' eye for VF shooting. I am not convinced that the varifocal had an influence when I used them.

[andybarton]

Same here. Consistently about 1.5 degrees sloping to the right.

[stephan54]

Guilty of sloping pictures myself. Thought being a left eye shooter had to do with it. 

Edited March 28, 2024 by stephan54

[LocalHero1953]

Always sloping, but I can't remember which way. Even though I use the digital horizon in both SL2-S and Q2

Edited March 28, 2024 by LocalHero1953

[RexGig0]

I have poor proprioception, which is not exactly the same thing as poor balance. Plus, I have scoliosis, so, when my bottom half is perfectly aligned with the planet, my upper half is a bit misaligned. So, when my field of view is restricted, a perfect storm can start developing. In short, I am a clumsy carp.

I regularly use digital horizons, when shooting my DSLRs. When using Live View, I can use the digital horizon with an M Type 246, but the original-version M10 deleted that feature, in which case I must do without, while shooting color with the M system.

Edited March 28, 2024 by RexGig0

[LocalHero1953]

I recently shot a series of photos of play rehearsals where the main backdrop was the US flag hung vertically. None of those shots were off-vertical. It made me wonder if I am more sensitised to verticals than horizontals.

[stuny]

Happens to me, too.  I often have to fix it in post.

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[Bikie John]

Yup, me too. Back when I was shooting Olympus OM film SLRs I got hold of the focussing screen with a grid ruled on it, which helped a bit. As long as I remembered to check it, of course.

There is another more fundamental problem though. Sometimes it is virtually impossible to get a picture that looks "straight". I've seen it with landscapes without a flat horizon for example, maybe where the far side of a lake looks level but there are trees and buildings that are tilted. Correct it for them and the water threatens to drain away. I shoot a lot of sport and there are a lot of supposedly vertical/horizontal features in the background - goal posts, barriers round the pitch, floodlight stanchions, and fences and houses in the background. None of them are parallel or perpendicular so something always looks wrong. And no amount of levelling the camera will fix that!

John

[roydonian]

I have the same problem, and raised the topic is another thread some time ago.