What if Leica made a new modern M film camera, what could be expected?

[Borna]

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44 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

None of these will happen.

Day dreaming is fun 

[LocalHero1953]

A new film camera, using modern technology, no design constraint? Silent electronic shutter, wifi link to Fotos, GPS, IBIS, ISO to 25,000.

Oh, and a monochrome version, please.

[Anbaric]

How about an AF body that uses the M bayonet, introduced simultaneously for the film and digital lines?

In reality, it's unlikely anything much will change, and we won't see significant film body upgrades beyond what was in the M6 40 years ago. The last time Leica really innovated here was more than 20 years ago, and they've since abandoned flash metering, AE and viewfinder display of shutter speeds. Instead we have retro features and a camera without a meter. They know their market.

[250swb]

What could be expected? Something stupid and stupidly expensive. 
 

But they could finish a half arsed job by making an M7 successor, a fully electronic and a fully mechanical shutter (like a Nikon FM3a), and make it reliable (like a mechanical Nikon), metal chassis and ABS body, and fully weather sealed to appeal to the action man Leica user. It would be a big boost for the brand if they could change forever the perception that M cameras intrinsically need special boutique bags because they are so delicate, in fact they could issue it in a hessian sack and with string for a strap.

[Pyrogallol]

The features of an M6 in the body size of a screw model 11. A metal shutter to avoid sun burns and pinholes, like some Canon rangefinder bodies. Variable focal length viewfinder, like some Canon rangefinder bodies. Bring back the dioptre adjustment that used to be standard on most screw Leicas . No batteries needed except for the meter, like the M6.

And AI to tell you when you have got the picture composition wrong and the shutter release locks up until you correct your error.

[earleygallery]

28 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

The features of an M6 in the body size of a screw model 11. A metal shutter to avoid sun burns and pinholes, like some Canon rangefinder bodies. Variable focal length viewfinder, like some Canon rangefinder bodies. Bring back the dioptre adjustment that used to be standard on most screw Leicas . No batteries needed except for the meter, like the M6.

And AI to tell you when you have got the picture composition wrong and the shutter release locks up until you correct your error.

It's not a dioptre adjustment, it's to focus the rangefinder.

[earleygallery]

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I'd agree with some of the above points.

Auto/Manual with average and spot metering.

Metal shutter.

Rear door/quick load system.

Built in dioptre adjustment.

ABS top/bottom plates for a lighter body.

BUT..........I am sure it'd be a flop as most would say it's not a 'real' Leica and it would be discontinued after a couple of years due to poor sales, only to become much sought after years later and hailed as the best camera they ever built.

[sometimesmaybe]

hoping for a manual focus confirmation light. i have it in my old film SLR

[John Robinson]

Build an M with the same quality as the M3 but add a variable-magnification viewfinder that changes with the lens from 0.58 (24mm and 28mm) through 0.72 (35mm) to 0.93 (50mm and longer), maybe even go beyond that for 90mm.  This would save fiddling around with the (very good) Leica 1.25 and 1.4 screw-in magnifiers.

What about an L-mount film camera?  That would be a challenge!

[Roy Bigsby]

It’s not an M, but I say bring back the Leicaflex, and in black paint. That might even be a solution for an L-mount film camera as noted above. 

[raizans]

I’m dreaming of a body with a top profile like the CL and Zeiss Ikon ZM. The curve on the back coming up to the flat corner at the front gives them a modern feel.

Put in a titanium, 1/2000 shutter with 1/250 flash sync, shutter speed dial and EV comp like the ZM, 0.58 viewfinder, maybe a spot metering mode.

[Anbaric]

13 hours ago, earleygallery said:

It's not a dioptre adjustment, it's to focus the rangefinder.

Although it's mainly there to focus the RF 'telescope', it can also be used for minor dioptre adjustments. From the IIIf manual:

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Edited March 26, 2024 by Anbaric

[Danner]

After reading all these replies, I'll toss out a few more pence ...

DX reader:  Not useful in this day and age, and this is a reliability failure point as well.

AE: Only if it could be accomplished using mechanical-only components (i.e. no electronic shutter speed control and no battery reliance).

High mag finder:  Yes, it would be nice to have a body like the M3, where both eyes could be open (comfortably) while focusing/framing.  Of course, this would be a 50/75/90/135 body.

Self timer:  Yes, if was fully mechanical.

Bigger, more comfortable viewfinder:  Yes, as long as it didn't bulk-up the body, needs to be the same basic dimensions as the older Ms.

M3 quality:  Very much yes please.

Price:  Well, if you need to ask, ...

[wattsy]

I sincerely doubt that Leica (or any other camera manufacturer) still has the design and manufacturing expertise to develop a brand new film camera in any meaningful way. The photographic industry has shifted so much in the last 20 years that the knowledge and experience which pushed film camera technology forward during the 1970s-1990s will have been lost as people have retired or moved on to other things. The allied industries and manufacturers that built camera related parts have also largely disappeared. Sure, there are plenty of bright people at Leica, and building cameras isn't like building a nuclear submarine, but almost any Leica employee in 2024 given the job of designing a new film camera would likely be working outside their comfort zone and experience.

Edited March 26, 2024 by wattsy

[Anbaric]

8 minutes ago, wattsy said:

I sincerely doubt that Leica (or any other camera manufacturer) still has the design and manufacturing expertise to develop a brand new film camera in any meaningful way. The photographic industry has shifted so much in the last 20 years that the knowledge and experience which pushed film camera technology forward during the 1970s-1990s will have been lost as people have retired or moved on to other things. The allied industries and manufacturers that built camera related parts have also largely disappeared. Sure, there are plenty of bright people at Leica, and building cameras isn't like building a nuclear submarine, but almost any Leica employee in 2024 given the job of designing a new film camera would likely be working outside their comfort zone and experience.

Ricoh/Pentax are having a go, but their first effort is a simple half frame compact with auto exposure, manual wind and zone focus:

https://news.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/rim_info2/2024/20240301_039653.html

They say they'd like to make an SLR again, though we'll have to wait and see if that much more complex project actually happens.

[earleygallery]

10 hours ago, Anbaric said:

Although it's mainly there to focus the RF 'telescope', it can also be used for minor dioptre adjustments. From the IIIf manual:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I stand corrected!

[wattsy]

5 hours ago, Anbaric said:

Ricoh/Pentax are having a go, but their first effort is a simple half frame compact with auto exposure, manual wind and zone focus:

https://news.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/rim_info2/2024/20240301_039653.html

They say they'd like to make an SLR again, though we'll have to wait and see if that much more complex project actually happens.

That's an interesting development and unexpected but the baby steps that Pentax are having to take to get back into manufacturing a film camera suggest that my point above about the loss of expertise and allied industries is not wide of the mark. 

Edited March 26, 2024 by wattsy

[adan]

Do those suggesting a hinged rear back actually understand how Leica film RF cameras are constructed (ever since 1925)?

The body of the camera is made as one solid piece of steel "tubing" - i.e. the back and the front are one and the same piece of metal, except for the trap-door.

For a reason.

One can drive a RangeRover over it (and very likely a main battle tank), and not crush it.

The camera "guts" (shutter, winding, RF) can easily be slipped in and out of their protective steel shell, as another unit, for servicing.

See splash image here - the shell is on the right side:

https://leica-camera.blog/2011/10/10/repair-of-a-legend/

[Helge]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb wattsy:

That's an interesting development and unexpected but the baby steps that Pentax are having to take to get back into manufacturing a film camera suggest that my point above about the loss of expertise and allied industries is not wide of the mark. 

Loss of expertise is one possible reason, however from an engineer‘s viewpoint not the only one and probably not the most important.

One very important point is the need for Ricoh to develop an analogue camera almost from scratch. A lot people might think that Ricoh just needs to pull some drawings off the shelf, but this is not the case. Major issue is that most of the old technologies and a big part of the materials that have been used at Ricoh about 20 years ago for their last film camera are not available anymore.

Leica is in the lucky situation to either produce a lot of critical components themselves or to have local suppliers together with good contracts.

Any new camera been developed at Leica including some of the here described new features would face similar issues Ricoh is going through. A big risk in the context of about 5000 film Leicas leaving the factory every year. Leica is well doing considering rather small changes. 

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[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, wattsy said:

That's an interesting development and unexpected but the baby steps that Pentax are having to take to get back into manufacturing a film camera suggest that my point above about the loss of expertise and allied industries is not wide of the mark. 

In some of their videos like this one they talk about how this may be the last chance to transmit knowledge and expertise from (now retired) engineers to their younger staff, and their efforts to make this happen. I'd guess it's harder to solve the problem of the loss of allied industries though - you presumably can't just buy a shutter for a manual SLR off the shelf from Copal these days, etc.

Perhaps it would be easier to start with a dSLR design. Apparently some late model film SLRs were developed this way. Though the Nikon F100 was launched first, Nikon's main focus was on the D1 at the time and the F100 was something of a spinoff from it. Similarly, the F6 would incorporate quite a bit of technology from their dSLRs, though it must still have been expensive to develop (maybe too expensive to justify today).

In any case, today's film shooters tend to favour manual cameras, where most of the expertise lies further back in time (Pentax's own once ubiquitous K1000 went out of production in the 90s). I've always wondered whether the Cosina production line could be revived. I think they were making the FM10 for Nikon until around 2017, though perhaps they had been using up new old stock for a while. And again, they were probably depending on those allied industries for key components. Any new film camera has to be a sustainable design, perhaps with more done in-house than was previously the case. I hope Ricoh/Cosina can pull this off with more models to follow, but we'll see.