Resolving power of lenses on the 60 MP SL3 sensor

[jaapv]

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Total bewilderment when reviewing ( or rather dissing) the M9M about focus shift with red filters and promising “ further investigation “? ( never happened). Measuring the far edge of a 45 degree target on the SL and screaming AF failure? The rest is hidden on his subscription site. 

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[Sohail]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

.... The rest is hidden on his subscription site. 

Conveniently.

[jaapv]

3 minutes ago, Sohail said:

Conveniently.

For him. 🤩

[LBJ2]

On 3/14/2024 at 12:18 AM, beewee said:

Peter Karbe did a tech talk a while back that went into details of the design targets for M and SL lenses.

TLDR:

• Modern M lenses (pre-APO) were targeting 50% contrast @ 40 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at 24 MP)
• TL and SL (non-APO) were targeting 50% contrast @ 60 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at around 60 MP)
• SL APO lenses are hitting 50% contrast @ 200 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at well abover 100 MP)

Skip to the 1:15:08 mark.

 

"All we want are the facts..." Thank you Peter Karbe.

Excellent TLDR summary @beewee 

[01af]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb nicci78:

Isn’t that what I said?

No, it isn't. Instead, you fantasized about lens resolution being affected by the sensor, and sensor resolution being affected by the lens.

Maybe you meant the right thing. But you didn't say it.

[nicci78]

18 hours ago, AZN said:

I attended the Leica SL3 launch here in Sydney last night.  Was pleased to notice that one of the presenters was using a 20+ year old Leica APO-MACRO-ELMARIT-R 100mm lens to show how the SL3 performed for high-resolution product work.  See image below where he is setting up to photograph a Leica watch.

BTW the enclosed photo is a bit rough because I shot it using an iPhone 🫤

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

APO-Macro-Elmarit-R 100mm is one of my favorite Leica lenses. It is über sharp. Over engineered decades ago and still stunning today. 

[nicci78]

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31 minutes ago, 01af said:

No, it isn't. Instead, you fantasized about lens resolution being affected by the sensor, and sensor resolution being affected by the lens.

Maybe you meant the right thing. But you didn't say it.

please no need to argue. I don't care.

It is a situation of the glass half full or half empty. It is just a question of perspective. 
Peter Karbe is not wrong. Roger Ciccala neither. 

However just like the example of APO-MACRO-ELMARIT-R 100mm. Invest into best glass. It will serve you long. So Karbe is right about reengineering Leica lenses for future proofing.

 

 

[Chaemono]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb nicci78:

So ? What ? Isn’t that what I said ? Everything is true at the same time. 
Each other will be limited by the other one. 

For some, it’s easier to be given a theoretically precise explanation and deduce practically comprehensive implications from it, than to be provided with a practically correct explanation and to induce the precise theory behind it. 

[AZN]

9 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I'm in Vietnam with my SL3 and missed the launch. Was it good? 

More interesting than "good".  It was more up-market than the SL2 launch in Nov 2019.  Red carpet, security at the door checking invitations, DJ in the loft playing groovy tunes in a low volume.  There was an emphasis on print quality from the SL3's images, although a few people I spoke with (mainly in advertising) were – like me – now digital only. Unlike 2019, however, there were plenty of the new cameras (ie. SL3s) after the panel presentations to try them out.

Edited March 15, 2024 by AZN

[thebarnman]

On 3/15/2024 at 1:50 PM, AZN said:

There was an emphasis on print quality from the SL3's images, although a few people I spoke with (mainly in advertising) were – like me – now digital only.

Are they saying the prints from SL3 has higher print quality compared to what...the SL2?  I think there's more megapixels than what's needed for even large prints in both the SL2 and the SL3.  So is it the sensor that's better in the SL3 which helps the print quality?    

[Jeff S]

9 hours ago, thebarnman said:

Are they saying the prints from SL3 has higher print quality compared to what...the SL2?  I think there's more megapixels than what's needed for even large prints in both the SL2 and the SL3.  So is it the sensor that's better in the SL3 which helps the print quality?    

They’re marketing cameras.  You’ll take better pics with your new camera, too.

Jeff

[FlashGordonPhotography]

22 hours ago, thebarnman said:

Are they saying the prints from SL3 has higher print quality compared to what...the SL2?  I think there's more megapixels than what's needed for even large prints in both the SL2 and the SL3.  So is it the sensor that's better in the SL3 which helps the print quality?    

Another internet myth. You can't have "more than enough" pixels for large prints. Also (off topic), people don't actually look at photos or paintings from 1.5x the diagonal as a standard viewing distance. They shove their noses as close as you'll let them.

It'll be true that the differences between the SL2 and SL3 will be VERY subtle. Maybe non-existent if technique isn't perfect. But I can tell the difference between my SL3 and X2D/GFX systems at pretty normal print sizes. Say 16x20". At the sizes I print (A0) it's spectacularly obvious. What is true is that a big print with more pixels isn't a better photograph than one with less pixels. I print to my large sizes from an A7R3, without hassle. But I wouldn't dare hang them next to a print from the Hasselblad.

Gordon

[frame-it]

On 3/14/2024 at 3:09 AM, Sohail said:

I've no doubt the SL APO lenses (and 50 SL/1.4) cope very well on the new 60MP SL3 sensor. But can the same be said of the non-APO SL lenses? Interestingly, Lloyd Chambers recently wrote that M lenses "suck at 60MP (or half that) on Leica M11 and Leica SL3... and with only one lens (the 35/2 APO) remotely approaching the reference grade Voigtlander VM APO lenses".

It would be interesting to see more testing on this.

i think the actual question should be, can a xxxMP sensor resolve/capture enough details via an xyx lens 🤣🤣

[Qwertynm]

Am 23.5.2024 um 07:35 schrieb thebarnman:

I think there's more megapixels than what's needed for even large prints in both the SL2 and the SL3.

In my experience it is more important to have an A4 print at 300 or 400 dpi than a A0 print because the viewing distance is (usually) much greater on the A0 print. Getting up close to an A0 print has it's own charme, so ideally every camera (for me) should have more megapixels than the one it replaces.

[Sohail]

3 hours ago, frame-it said:

i think the actual question should be, can a xxxMP sensor resolve/capture enough details via an xyx lens 🤣🤣

Not sure I'm getting you.

Clearly, an SL APO lens resolves more detail (on the same sensor) than say other non-SL APO lenses. At some point, a lens will be out resolved by a digital sensor.

See here for more on the optical resolution of a camera lens:
https://scientificimaging.com/knowledge-base/optical-resolution-of-a-camera-and-lens-system

[jaapv]

The whole discussion arises from the word resolution.. Sensor resolution is something completely different from lens resolution. Lens resolution is contrast- based and measured in LP/mm at a given contrast, sensor is the number of pixels/mm and based on simple counting. Trying to equate two basically different values will lead to meaningless outcomes.

[Sohail]

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

The whole discussion arises from the word resolution.. Sensor resolution is something completely different from lens resolution. Lens resolution is contrast- based and measured in LP/mm at a given contrast, sensor is the number of pixels/mm and based on simple counting. Trying to equate two basically different values will lead to meaningless outcomes.

No equating here.

[jaapv]

On 3/14/2024 at 5:18 AM, beewee said:

Peter Karbe did a tech talk a while back that went into details of the design targets for M and SL lenses.

TLDR:

• Modern M lenses (pre-APO) were targeting 50% contrast @ 40 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at 24 MP)
• TL and SL (non-APO) were targeting 50% contrast @ 60 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at around 60 MP)
• SL APO lenses are hitting 50% contrast @ 200 lp/mm (pixel level sharp at well abover 100 MP)

Design targets...  So what sensor resolution will show M lens resolution @ 100% contrast?

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Hallo,

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[SrMi]

4 hours ago, frame-it said:

i think the actual question should be, can a xxxMP sensor resolve/capture enough details via an xyx lens 🤣🤣

The answer is that a better lens allows an xxxMP sensor to capture more details, regardless of the xxx value.

[Jeff S]

9 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

But I can tell the difference between my SL3 and X2D/GFX systems at pretty normal print sizes. Say 16x20". At the sizes I print (A0) it's spectacularly obvious. What is true is that a big print with more pixels isn't a better photograph than one with less pixels. I print to my large sizes from an A7R3, without hassle. But I wouldn't dare hang them next to a print from the Hasselblad.

Gordon

But you’ve introduced another variable: physical sensor size.  Like comparing MF to 35mm in film (to a degree).
 

There are just too many variables involved in print quality, especially considering differing talents of different users.  Same as with any photo gear; no two people will produce the same results, even using identical gear…thankfully.  

If I show you a modest sized print, say 11x14, you will have no idea what camera, or lens, or software, or techniques, or paper (if under glass), etc that I used, let alone unknown (to you) variables like shot lighting/conditions or display lighting specifics.  One can make crap looking prints using “great” gear, and wonderful prints using modest gear.  MP is but one of myriad variables. Testing for these variables under controlled conditions is of no interest for me.  I just take pics and make prints; no viewers know or care about the gear used, in my experience.

Jeff