Leica SL3 AF

[Malabito]

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28 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I do not have the luxury of testing the equipment for weeks before buying it. However, I do not form a definitive opinion until weeks after using it. I understand some use short testing at the dealer to evaluate a camera, though I have never found it helpful. However, I do not understand that many form a definitive opinion, as you did in post #132, based on a few hours of testing.

In short, after reading your evaluation and @FlashGordonPhotography's opinion, I tend to favor the opinion of someone who has used it for a longer time, especially if their opinions differ. The problem was that we did not know whether your conclusion was based on longer ownership and testing. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is helpful if the experience is qualified.

I do not have the APO Summicron and SL2 with me, so I cannot try to replicate your experience yet.

At the end the only opinion that really matters is your own... perhaps the camera fits Gordon's style better than mine, perhaps it even fits your style better than Gordon's... to me the camera was a bit of a dissapointment but perhaps to you and for many will not be the case. 

 

 

[Photoworks]

I made the same mistake after getting the camera, I didn't think too many improvements were in the SL3 to replace the SL2

a month later I can say that I am thinking of replacing the SL2 with another SL3, there are significant changes that make sense for me to spend the money on it.

It takes time to find all the options and settings inside this new camera since there are not enough explanations as to what is new

[Simone_DF]

17 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

It's also incredibly lens dependant. The SL APO's are MUCH slower than the Sigma DG DN's of the same focal length and speed. The SIgmas are very quick.

Interesting. My only Sigma prime at the moment is the 24mm f3.5, and I haven’t noticed any difference compared to my 50 and 90 APO’s. Perhaps because it was part of the “first wave” of DG DN lenses and it doesn’t have the newest AF motors, or because I use it somewhat differently to the other two. But I’ll try to pay more attention to that. I’m also planning to get the Sigma 50mm f2 sometime in the future, so I’ll be able to have a more thorough look at things like AF speed when using them side by side. 
 

Yes, firmware upgrades will bring improvements. The thing that people seems to forget is that the SL2 is EOL and no further improvements will be developed for that model, whereas we are looking forward 4 years of tweaks and AF upgrades for the SL3

[LocalHero1953]

I have a used Sigma DG DN 85/1.4 arriving in the next week or so. I sold the Apo-Summicron-SL 90 to help pay for it, but I still have the Apo-Summicron-SL 75, 35, and Summilux-SL 50 for comparison. It will be on the SL2-S (no SL3 yet). 

[Luke_Miller]

4 hours ago, Photoworks said:

It takes time to find all the options and settings inside this new camera since there are not enough explanations as to what is new

I suspect that many of the reports of unsatisfactory AF performance with the SL series cameras are due to the lack of information on how to best set it up for the user's intended use. I am also a Nikon shooter and there is a wealth of online information available to me regarding Nikon autofocus and how to configure it for what I am photographing.  I suspect the same is true for Canon, Sony, etc. shooters. For Leica SL shooters, not so much.  We just don't have a body of highly experienced SL camera users that write books or publish videos on how to employ them.  Here Leica could step in with detailed user guides that are kept updated as firmware updates are released.  But of the camera brands with which I have experience, Leica has the least useful documentation.  This is particularly unfortunate due to the paucity of information from third-party sources.  The result is these cameras have a reputation (undeserved IMO) of poor AF performance.

I have figured out how to make my SL, and SL2 work for me and am happy with their performance.  I can't help but wonder how many more SL cameras Leica would sell if it provided documentation that fully explained how to get the best results from them rather than leaving it as an exercise for the customer.  

Edited April 13, 2024 by Luke_Miller

[FlashGordonPhotography]

5 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Interesting. My only Sigma prime at the moment is the 24mm f3.5, and I haven’t noticed any difference compared to my 50 and 90 APO’s. Perhaps because it was part of the “first wave” of DG DN lenses and it doesn’t have the newest AF motors, or because I use it somewhat differently to the other two. But I’ll try to pay more attention to that. I’m also planning to get the Sigma 50mm f2 sometime in the future, so I’ll be able to have a more thorough look at things like AF speed when using them side by side. 
 

Yes, firmware upgrades will bring improvements. The thing that people seems to forget is that the SL2 is EOL and no further improvements will be developed for that model, whereas we are looking forward 4 years of tweaks and AF upgrades for the SL3

That is interesting. I don't have the 24/3.5. Mainly I'm testing the 21/2, 50/2 and 85/2.8. The Sigmas are faster. The 21's are close. The other two I see a bigger speed gap.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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9 hours ago, Malabito said:

At the end the only opinion that really matters is your own... perhaps the camera fits Gordon's style better than mine, perhaps it even fits your style better than Gordon's... to me the camera was a bit of a dissapointment but perhaps to you and for many will not be the case. 

 

 

Absolutely. Also, the longer you've been here the more you know about a person's biases and requirements. You learn to *read between the lines* a bit more, so to speak. There are many here that don't have English as a first language. A few use Google translate. We all have our quirks and different things have different levels of importance to each of us.

It'd be pretty boring if we all just liked the same things.

Gordon

[frame-it]

8 hours ago, Luke_Miller said:

I suspect that many of the reports of unsatisfactory AF performance with the SL series cameras are due to the lack of information on how to best set it up for the user's intended use.

this was actually a good video for AF users:

 

[Malabito]

16 hours ago, Luke_Miller said:

I suspect that many of the reports of unsatisfactory AF performance with the SL series cameras are due to the lack of information on how to best set it up for the user's intended use. I am also a Nikon shooter and there is a wealth of online information available to me regarding Nikon autofocus and how to configure it for what I am photographing.  I suspect the same is true for Canon, Sony, etc. shooters. For Leica SL shooters, not so much.  We just don't have a body of highly experienced SL camera users that write books or publish videos on how to employ them.  Here Leica could step in with detailed user guides that are kept updated as firmware updates are released.  But of the camera brands with which I have experience, Leica has the least useful documentation.  This is particularly unfortunate due to the paucity of information from third-party sources.  The result is these cameras have a reputation (undeserved IMO) of poor AF performance.

I have figured out how to make my SL, and SL2 work for me and am happy with their performance.  I can't help but wonder how many more SL cameras Leica would sell if it provided documentation that fully explained how to get the best results from them rather than leaving it as an exercise for the customer.  

Sl2s autofocus implementation is not good.... no matter the documentation. Yes it's usable, I shoot events with it and make it work. But is like 10 years behind the competition.

If you need to read a 500 page manual to make it work, something is wrong.

[Hanno]

On 4/13/2024 at 11:18 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

The posts I find the most helpful are those that reach a conclusion for the writer, especially if I have an understanding of the sort of photography the writer does.

The posts I tend to ignore are those that reach a conclusion (especially after short usage) and make strong recommendations for everyone else. 

 Thanks @LocalHero1953.
 

That’s for me one of the most relevant and insightful comment posted in this forum ! 😁🙏

[Luke_Miller]

Of course the SL2 is nearly five years old at this point, which makes it old technology.  My other camera is a Nikon Z8 which is current technology and has state of the art autofocus.  But if you want to achieve state of the art performance with it one either needs a good manual or must spend a lot of time experimenting with the dozens of settings that affect autofocus performance. 

Events don't require state of the art autofocus so my SL and SL2 work just fine.  The video posted by frame-it above is very helpful and is pretty much how my cameras are configured.

[Photoworks]

18 hours ago, Luke_Miller said:

I suspect that many of the reports of unsatisfactory AF performance with the SL series cameras are due to the lack of information on how to best set it up for the user's intended use. I am also a Nikon shooter and there is a wealth of online information available to me regarding Nikon autofocus and how to configure it for what I am photographing.  I suspect the same is true for Canon, Sony, etc. shooters. For Leica SL shooters, not so much.  We just don't have a body of highly experienced SL camera users that write books or publish videos on how to employ them.  Here Leica could step in with detailed user guides that are kept updated as firmware updates are released.  But of the camera brands with which I have experience, Leica has the least useful documentation.  This is particularly unfortunate due to the paucity of information from third-party sources.  The result is these cameras have a reputation (undeserved IMO) of poor AF performance.

I have figured out how to make my SL, and SL2 work for me and am happy with their performance.  I can't help but wonder how many more SL cameras Leica would sell if it provided documentation that fully explained how to get the best results from them rather than leaving it as an exercise for the customer.  

I have shot canon and sony for years, and I never had to tweak anything on the AF to work, I have shot the SL2 for 4 years, and it can work, best on body detection, but it is not simple and perfect like a german would like it.

[Photoworks]

40 minutes ago, Luke_Miller said:

Of course the SL2 is nearly five years old at this point, which makes it old technology.  My other camera is a Nikon Z8 which is current technology and has state of the art autofocus.  But if you want to achieve state of the art performance with it one either needs a good manual or must spend a lot of time experimenting with the dozens of settings that affect autofocus performance. 

Events don't require state of the art autofocus so my SL and SL2 work just fine.  The video posted by frame-it above is very helpful and is pretty much how my cameras are configured.

I suppose you are shooting one kind of subject? great if it always works for you

[Simone_DF]

17 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

That is interesting. I don't have the 24/3.5. Mainly I'm testing the 21/2, 50/2 and 85/2.8. The Sigmas are faster. The 21's are close. The other two I see a bigger speed gap.

As I said above though, I use the 24mm differently than my 50 and 90, more for static subjects or where a fast autofocus is not required, so perhaps I didn't notice any major difference simply because the vast majority of the time I use it for different applications.

[Mikko Kankainen]

I am taking pictures of a football team junior players. 600 kids. I hired as usual another photographer. 
 

SL3 and SL2s. Lenses Leica 24-70 and Sigma 28-70. 
 

SL2s is every time faster to focus with af-s using Sigma lens and it wobbless way less. With Leica lens about the same.
 

 10 000 pictures in two evening. Quite dimm location, using studio flashes. Both of us have the same feeling that SL2s focuses faster and locks easier. Absolutely no benefit to use SL3, quite opposite. 
We almost have an argue who can use SL2s. 
 

Another photographer is also a Leica shooter and was almost shocked how bad SL3 is. And not just af. Really hard and heavy mentally to take 5000 pictures in one evening when every focus wobbless back and forth. 
 

But as Gordon said, it heavily depends on lens how SL3 focuses. SL2s is maybe more mature. 

[Mikko Kankainen]

Results from two cameras, exactly same conditions, different lens. About 10 000 images totally. Eye detect, af-s. Studio settings, normal lightning but quite dim.

SL3+Sigma 28-70
about 50 misses

SL2s+Leica 24-70
2 misses

Edited April 23, 2024 by Mikko Kankainen

[tom0511]

Am 13.4.2024 um 15:22 schrieb Photoworks:

I made the same mistake after getting the camera, I didn't think too many improvements were in the SL3 to replace the SL2

a month later I can say that I am thinking of replacing the SL2 with another SL3, there are significant changes that make sense for me to spend the money on it.

It takes time to find all the options and settings inside this new camera since there are not enough explanations as to what is new

Which are the biggest benefits of the SL3 in your experience?

[geronimosan]

7 hours ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

Results from two cameras, exactly same conditions, different lens. About 10 000 images totally. Eye detect, af-s. Studio settings, normal lightning but quite dim.

SL3+Sigma 28-70
about 50 misses

SL2s+Leica 24-70
2 misses

How many misses with SL3 + Leica lens?

And, out of 10,000 images, the difference between alleged 2 and 50 misses is statistically insignificant.

Edited April 23, 2024 by geronimosan

[Mikko Kankainen]

Difference was clear but it was because of lens. With Leica lens it felt the same, we just tried to find out if lens was the reason for SL3 bad performance and it was. We did not swap lenses because it's important to keep same combo so one can copy/paste color settings. There was a difference regarding WB between lenses.

But there is no discussion about the fact that SL2s with Leica lens was way better to focus than SL3 with this Sigma zoom. 

 

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[albireo_double]

I haven't yet shot with the camera properly but I understand (based on previous discussions here) that the eye focus benefits are realised properly in the iAF or AF-C modes, where phase detection comes in together with contrast detection. When I tried the camera during the launch presentation, it did not miss a single shot - admittedly the model was not moving around too much, but I was shooting with the SL50 which is normally no speed demon, under dim light. I was in AFC and had eye/face detect on. I still need to run my own tests with my own camera now, to see how fast and reliable it is with eye/face detect in the AFS mode. My SL2 was ok shooting like that, so there should be no reason why the SL3 should be different. But still, AFC may be the way to go in this scenario with the SL3.