Leica SL3 AF

[Simone_DF]

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17 minutes ago, Luke_Miller said:

I read all the posts about the primitive Leica autofocus performance before I stuck my toe in the water with a used SL (Typ 601).  Initially I struggled because I set its AF up like I do on my Nikon bodies and tried to shoot it like a Nikon.  I quickly realized it was a very different animal.  Then I went to work figuring out how it really worked and have been happy with it since.  That led me to an SL2, which is better still.  As an event shooter I find the SL and SL2 autofocus performance is fine for almost all my work.  I still have a D5 and Z8 for that rare situation when I need something better.  I suspect that once the SL3 autofocus gets fully dialed in it would meet all of my needs.

The SL2 AF is good in AF-S, though occasionally it struggles with face/eye recognition more than it should.

The main issue with the SL2 autofocus is with AF-C and video, where it's at the level cameras were about 10-12 years ago thanks to Panasonic's bizarre idea that CDAF is more effective than PDAF for AF-C.  

Now PDAF has been implemented by both, so eventually, in a year from now, we should see some significant improvements. Remember when the SL2 was launched? The AF was an absolute shitshow, imho. But one year later, when the SL2-S was launched, it was greatly improved. I suspect we'll see the same pattern with the SL3. 

[geronimosan]

3 hours ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

I own one and I was one of first in this topic to say I dont find it fantastic. About 10k photos now taken. 

You asked how many of you, at least me then 🙂

Interesting - in reading your posts, you said AF hunts every single picture you take and that you primarily use Sigma and Panasonic lenses.  I tested out only SL lenses with updated firmware and took about 100 shots - all of them snapped to focus (no AF hunting) and all of them perfectly in focus.  Maybe take your SL3 to a Leica store and test out the SL lenses?

Edited April 12, 2024 by geronimosan

[FlashGordonPhotography]

2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

The SL2 AF is good in AF-S, though occasionally it struggles with face/eye recognition more than it should.

The main issue with the SL2 autofocus is with AF-C and video, where it's at the level cameras were about 10-12 years ago thanks to Panasonic's bizarre idea that CDAF is more effective than PDAF for AF-C.  

Now PDAF has been implemented by both, so eventually, in a year from now, we should see some significant improvements. Remember when the SL2 was launched? The AF was an absolute shitshow, imho. But one year later, when the SL2-S was launched, it was greatly improved. I suspect we'll see the same pattern with the SL3. 

I think that's a fair assessment. Although I didn't think the current AFC was terrible for results for slower moving subjects but the EVF wobble makes for a horrible experience. Video and challenging and fast-moving stills is still, as you correctly describe, a shit show. Still is.

The SL3 is already vastly better in AFC. And it takes only a little tweaking to get pretty high levels of accuracy for average subjects like people and animals that are moving at a *normal* pace. I have had no real opportunity to test in really stressful situations. It's obvious there's work to do. Animals is listed as *beta*. And there's still some stuff going on in the EVF with AFC that's inconsistent. For people I'm putting it alongside my Fujifilm XH2. I think that's pretty fair. I haven't done enough animal shooting to rate it. That's quite improved on the SL2 but behind my R5, A7R5 and A1. It doesn't just jump off the subject for no reason though, like my R7. So, there's that. When it says it's on it seems to be on.

It's also incredibly lens dependant. The SL APO's are MUCH slower than the Sigma DG DN's of the same focal length and speed. The SIgmas are very quick. The 90-280 is way better than on the SL2 but the 24-90 feels about the same (still pretty fast). The SL 50 Summilux definitely prioritises accuracy over speed.

The SL system still only has one prime over 150mm and four zooms (if you count the Sigma and Leica 100-400 as different) over 300mm. So we'll need more lenses if the L mount wants to have the flexibility of the others. If sports and wildlife are my thing I wouldn't be looking at L mount anyway.

And yes, I also expect improvement with firmware.

Gordon

[geronimosan]

32 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:'s also incredibly lens dependant. The SL APO's are MUCH slower than the Sigma DG DN's of the same focal length and speed. 

"MUCH" is ambiguous and sounds overly dramatic. Quantify for us what the autofocus time differential is between 2 lenses when autofocus is engaged. 5 second difference? 1 second? Half a second? How exactly are you measuring the time differential?

[Photoworks]

I am discovering for myself new options for the SL3

Now that I had to do videos with it, I think it is a huge upgrade from the SL2.

In video, the AFC is as good as some of the Sony. and it is quick and reliable. Some lenses do better than others, the Panasonic lenses do very well.

Stange that open gate is no longer an option and that every SL has different crop modes at different resolutions. There should be one option of 4k 30p full frame.

The f-stop change wheel has a smooth exposure adjustment. The iso wheel does not. All the wheels make too much noise for video.

IN MF you can now have magnification when recording, and have the HDMI free out to be normal on the monitor.

 

[Luke_Miller]

6 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

The main issue with the SL2 autofocus is with AF-C and video, where it's at the level cameras were about 10-12 years ago ...

in my case I use AF-C with my SL/SL2/Q2 pretty much exclusively with good results.  But for video I am always manual focus, since my subjects are static.

[Mikko Kankainen]

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9 hours ago, geronimosan said:

Interesting - in reading your posts, you said AF hunts every single picture you take and that you primarily use Sigma and Panasonic lenses.  I tested out only SL lenses with updated firmware and took about 100 shots - all of them snapped to focus (no AF hunting) and all of them perfectly in focus.  Maybe take your SL3 to a Leica store and test out the SL lenses?

Word hunt is wrong, it's so hard for me to write in english and find a word that is not overdramatic. 

Maybe like this. These are my thoughts, not absolutely facts:

AF-S: Focusing is accurate, fast and in most cases it just works. When looking closely it makes very fast and usually unnoticeable focus tweaks back and forth. You can clearly see this in video I posted. But let me be clear. In real life and in normal lightning conditions this happens so quickly that user cannot see it (I still believe it happens). Eye focusing not 100% sure, still misses clear cases but usually it's fine.

AF-C: This mode uses phase detection and is totally usable in video work. However EVF resolution drop in af-c is quite bad.

I dont think there is anything wrong with my unit. I also think that this "focus tweaking" I see is because SL3 still uses contrast based system in AF-s. And I'm sure that when one goes out and shoots for a longer time in different situations these things starts to show up more.

Leica did not answer my question about focusing "hunts" and my findings, dealers dont know anything about this. Leica should answer but they dont, you always answer to clients emails. But it is what it is. 

About is it a sports camera. No not even close to A1, R3, 1DX3 level of course not. Not even 10 years old DSLR level. If you want to take pictures of running dog, buy 1DX2 used and 300 2.8 used for like 2500-3000€ and you have a set that no Leica can touch for that application.

Edited April 13, 2024 by Mikko Kankainen

[Malabito]

12 hours ago, geronimosan said:

How many of you complaining about the SL3 AF actually own or have even picked up an SL3, or are your comments based on the regurgitated talking points/complaints of other white paper/spec sheet/pixel peeper "influencers/reviewers" around the internet?  I've spent decades shooting action/sports/wildlife with the 1Dx and D4s series, along with shooting DSLR and C300/500 video. Being used to that level of AF, I went to the local Leica store last weekend and tested out the SL3 with the 16-35, 24-90, 90-280, and a few SL primes. Changing focus distances, focusing while zooming, focusing while panning, tracking moving subjects (as quick as people are outside the store - no horse derby action on the sidewalk, I'm afraid), face detection - all was snappy and spot-on. I found no flaws with the AF, and after reading all the comments here and on other forums about suuuuuuch terrible and slow AF, comparing it to the AF I'm used to with Canon and Nikon pro action bodies I was very pleasantly surprised at how well it worked.

I see a lot of generalized and hypothetical "crap on Leica" comments in this and other threads, and usually by a few prominent and repeat anti-Leica/pro-Sony/pro-Panasonic users here, but rarely, if ever, accompanied with actual data points or actual hands-on usage experience or even any real-world application. 

I was becoming a little anxious after reading all these naysayer comments, but after getting one in my hands and testing it out myself, I am 100% confident that it will work perfectly well for me in real world photography situations.  Will it have 100% hit rate using AFC on fast moving subjects? No, but then I never had 100% hit rate with my 1Dx/D4s series bodies either.  The SL3 is a phenomenal camera with fantastic AF, and will work wonderfully well for those of us who will actually get out and shoot with it.

I don't own one, but I was able to play with one for a couple of hours, mainly with a 35mm SL Apo. I focused on photo, not video...perhaps not enough time to make an educated assumption, but enough to perceive the chunkiness of the new grip, shorter but thicker, making it feel very close to the Panasonic S5, which for me is a negative. I need to stretch my hand more, and yet my last two fingers extend out of the grip, like with Sony bodies. The autofocus software implementation is the same as with the SL2s, with no focus area for face detection, so the issue with multiple people in the frame where the camera jumps from face to face remains. Also, AFC felt exactly the same, slow and unresponsive, perhaps a bit better, but compared to actual systems, it's still bad. And when in backlit situations, it wouldn't work any better. Also, perhaps due to the file size, the camera felt clunky, like slower.

Yes, a couple of hours is not enough to make a review, and I am not making one. I am just sharing my experience, and actually, it made me not upgrade my SL2s, which I wanted to do initially. At least now my options are to either keep the SL2s or move to the Z8, which I probably wont do given how much i like the colors of my sl2s + 35mm sl apo combo

I am not saying the sl3 is bad,  just that it didn't allign with what I was expecting as an improvement, (autofocus capabilities close to the competition, better battery life,  and same ergonomics as the sl2s)

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2024 by Malabito

[SrMi]

15 minutes ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

I dont think there is anything wrong with my unit. I also think that this "focus tweaking" I see is because SL3 still uses contrast based system in AF-s. And I'm sure that when one goes out and shoots for a longer time in different situations these things starts to show up more.

If SL3 uses a hybrid system for AF-S, you could also see slight tweaking at the end of the focusing process.

[Mikko Kankainen]

19 minutes ago, Malabito said:

I am not saying the sl3 is bad,  just that it didn't allign with what I was expecting as an improvement, (autofocus capabilities close to the competition, better battery life,  and same ergonomics as the sl2s)

And you would continue to see that like I do. I kept my SL2s and I also prefer the feel and the size of that body. And also dont see any big or major difference in photo mode to that camera. 

What is possible with SL3 is possible with SL2s. Talking photos not video. 

edit: you said camera felt slower. SL2 was noticable slower to use=UI, SL2s quite same. M11 feels faster to use than SL3, again UI. This is how I feel and see it. I quess it depens on a memory card etc etc

 

Edited April 13, 2024 by Mikko Kankainen

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, Mikko Kankainen said:

it's so hard for me to write in english and find a word that is not overdramatic. 

i think its perfectly OK, its the LUF

 

 

People here:

some have never used a certain camera model, but love to comment forever.

some have half baked knowledge from silly youtube videos and love to comment like its their personal experience.

some want to use an M11 like a film M, at 1/20th shutter speed then complain the images are out of focus.

some complain about the processor or colors all the time, but are using auto-ISO and auto White Balance like a phone camera.

some masters here can see the difference in rendering between every Leica lens at f5.6 - f11.

some passive aggressive types only like to complain about watermarks on or borders/frames around photos.

some spend almost all their time here gushing and commenting positively and even arguing with people who are having a genuine problem with a camera or lens, but have never posted good photos taken with their cameras.

some people complain non stop about pxiels and noise but rarely or never print their images

and

Some people just take photos and post photos and enjoy their equipment no matter how it is.

 

anyway moving on, there's a lot of knowledge available here, just need a nice Kevlar filter sometimes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2024 by frame-it

[FlashGordonPhotography]

9 hours ago, geronimosan said:

"MUCH" is ambiguous and sounds overly dramatic. Quantify for us what the autofocus time differential is between 2 lenses when autofocus is engaged. 5 second difference? 1 second? Half a second? How exactly are you measuring the time differential?

My best current estimate is the Sigma DG DN i lenses focus around twice as fast as the closest equivalent SL APO Summicrons. So do the Panasonics and the 35 and 50 non APO Summicrons. The APO SL Summicrons have the slowest focus but the highest IQ. Their focus speed is very usable (for me) but not close to the others. The wider SL APO's feel slightly faster than the longer ones.

I only comment on gear I own, have owned or use extensively. Currently in L primes (that I own) that's the 21, 28, 50 and 90 APO SL Summicrons. The 50 SL Summilux. The SL 50mm SL Summicron non APO,. 20, 24, 50 and 85mm Sigma DGDN f2's. A couple of Sigma Art's. And the Panasonic 18mm and 100mm macro.

K would say I'm overly dramatic. But I think she'd agree, not about camera gear.

Gordon

p.s. Oh and the 500 Sigma....

Edited April 13, 2024 by FlashGordonPhotography

[frame-it]

10 hours ago, geronimosan said:

Interesting - in reading your posts, you said AF hunts every single picture you take and that you primarily use Sigma and Panasonic lenses.  I tested out only SL lenses with updated firmware and took about 100 shots - all of them snapped to focus (no AF hunting) and all of them perfectly in focus.  Maybe take your SL3 to a Leica store and test out the SL lenses?

100 shots in AF-C at f1.4 or f2..fast moving subjects with occasional occlusion from other subjects >>  how many shots were perfectly in focus? f4 - f16 doesn't count if you really want to test this stuff properly.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

OK. I'm going in full support of Mikko here. I see exactly what he sees. I think he's done a stirling job of describing what's going on with the SL3. The difference is that it is in line with my expectations and not his. That's fine. 

In AFS there is often but not always, a small CDAF pulse at the end of the focus throw. Downside, once you see it you can't unsee it and it feels like a delay. Likely it isn't much. Upside: I'm finding the AF to be very accurate and reliable in AFS. With my A7R5 or Canon R5 I'll rarely get a frame that's slightly off but the AF feels faster. I'm not getting that so far with the SL3. I'm OK with that trade off. It'd be nice if focus or shutter could be prioritised in the menus. Maybe they can?? My S5II is the same, so I'm not surprised or annoyed by this. For my use it doesn't matter. Also the slower a lens focuses (50 Summilux or an APO SL) the more evident the CDAF pulse is. I barely notice it on my Sigmas and most of the zooms.

In AFC the EVF often drops resolution, but not EVERY time. I can't find a pattern. It's small but it's not expected behaviour from the SL3. I don't see this in the S5II (different EVF likely) and I was disappointed with it in the SL3. But since AFC has improved a lot I've decided to let it go. I think it'll improve as well.

I have an S5II and a Q3 so I knew exactly what the AF boxes would look like and I'm OK with them. But it is busy.

On April 24 Panasonic drops the next big update for the S5II. I think that'll tell us a lot about what's coming for the SL3. And firmware 1.1 still has a *beta* feel about it. It's perfectly stable but definitely not polished.

Even so I think it's fair to say that the AF has improved but still needs work.

Gordon

Edited April 13, 2024 by FlashGordonPhotography

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, Malabito said:

I don't own one, but I was able to play with one for a couple of hours, mainly with a 35mm SL Apo.

Camera evaluations after a "couple of hours" often differ from those after "a couple of weeks.

Edited April 13, 2024 by SrMi

[frame-it]

11 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Camera evaluations after a "couple of hours" often differ from those after "a couple of weeks.

sure but a capable person can get a ballpark idea of how that camera behaves in 2-3 hours, especially if one tries different lenses and modes

[SrMi]

3 minutes ago, frame-it said:

sure but a capable person can get a ballpark idea of how that camera behaves in 2-3 hours, especially if one tries different lenses and modes

I am not sure how to qualify a poster as a "capable person." My long experience with forums for various brands has taught me that most incorrect or incomplete opinions are based on camera or lens evaluations at the dealer (aka short experience in a limited environment and a single or very few lenses). 

[Malabito]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Camera evaluations after a "couple of hours" often differ from those after "a couple of weeks.

I guess you must be very lucky if you get to be able to test equipment for weeks before buying it. Not all of us have that luxury; some even have to buy blindly based on internet reviews.

 

A couple of hours is enough to tell if the camera would fit you or not, especially if you are coming from the same ecosystem. It is not like the grip would change shape. Yes, autofocus capabilities might improve, but based on my experience with other Leica cameras, it won't change drastically; it will just get slightly better. Software implementation will remain mostly the same.

Also, I never mentioned my comments were a review. I am just sharing my experience with the camera.

[SrMi]

13 minutes ago, Malabito said:

I guess you must be very lucky if you get to be able to test equipment for weeks before buying it. Not all of us have that luxury; some even have to buy blindly based on internet reviews.

I do not have the luxury of testing the equipment for weeks before buying it. However, I do not form a definitive opinion until weeks after using it. I understand some use short testing at the dealer to evaluate a camera, though I have never found it helpful. However, I do not understand that many form a definitive opinion, as you did in post #132, based on a few hours of testing.

In short, after reading your evaluation and @FlashGordonPhotography's opinion, I tend to favor the opinion of someone who has used it for a longer time, especially if their opinions differ. The problem was that we did not know whether your conclusion was based on longer ownership and testing. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is helpful if the experience is qualified.

I do not have the APO Summicron and SL2 with me, so I cannot try to replicate your experience yet.

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[LocalHero1953]

The posts I find the most helpful are those that reach a conclusion for the writer, especially if I have an understanding of the sort of photography the writer does.

The posts I tend to ignore are those that reach a conclusion (especially after short usage) and make strong recommendations for everyone else. 

Edited April 13, 2024 by LocalHero1953