Horizontal Lines - MP Issue or Lab Issue?

[Mbak66]

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Hi everyone,

I see horizontal lines on the last 4 rolls I developed, and I'm wondering if anyone may be able to identify the issue. The lines are on the negatives themselves (very faint), so I've ruled out a scanning issue. The lines are on about 50 of the last 144 exposures.

It's a brand new Leica MP. I bought it about 4 weeks ago at the Los Angeles Leica Store.

I'll be taking it into the Leica store tomorrow to have them check it - as well as dropping off some test rolls at a different lab.

I'm attaching a photo(s) for reference.

The film was tri-x, bought in-store.

I ran a test roll through the camera just now, and checked it to see if I see the lines even without development. I don't see anything, and am checking over very bright light. 

The lines run consecutively through many of frames of negatives - but on several frames they aren't consecutive, which is puzzling. 

I can't say for certain, but it feels like they're appearing on shots where the shutter is higher. 

Any clues or ideas what it could be? I'm hoping it's just the lab and I don't need to send the camera in!

Thanks in advance for any insight!

-Matt

 

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[250swb]

To me it looks like the lab is to blame.

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[TomB_tx]

They don't look perfectly horizontal, as do lines caused by irregularities in the edges of the curtains at 1/1000 shutter. So I would also suspect the lab. (Unless the image has been rotated to straighten it.)

[Mbak66]

Hi Tom

Great observation! But yes indeed the image is slightly cropped and rotated - so the horizontal lines are more parallel to the frame edges on the negatives. 

I have two rolls out to 2 different labs now. I’ll hopefully have them back by end of day to check. Crossing my fingers that I won’t need to take it into the leica store!

[250swb]

2 minutes ago, Mbak66 said:

Hi Tom

Great observation! But yes indeed the image is slightly cropped and rotated - so the horizontal lines are more parallel to the frame edges on the negatives. 

I have two rolls out to 2 different labs now. I’ll hopefully have them back by end of day to check. Crossing my fingers that I won’t need to take it into the leica store!

Look at it this way, a light leak through the shutter curtain would produce increased density on the negative and make the streaks lighter. But the bands are darker which to me says contaminated rollers in the processing machine or poor drying, etc.

[Mbak66]

Hey 250swb,

Very great point! I agree that light leaks can be ruled out here. Really great insight about possible contaminated rollers or poor drying. I’m hopeful that this anomaly won’t be seen on the two test rolls I have in progress now at two new labs.

I’ve gone down the rabbit hole of searching forums for any users who have experienced similar issues. Shutter tension seems to be a phrase that comes up on other posts of “similar” issues. But I haven’t quite found any example photos that match what I’m seeing. Obviously, I very much hope that you’re correct about it being a lab issue. Thank you again for your insight.

 

[adan]

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Do the lines continue from frame to frame, or across the blank film between exposed pictures? That would indicate a lab problem (dirty machine rollers, or streaks of dried chemicals on the film).

Do the lines only appear in exposures made at the highest shutter speeds (1/500-1/000)? That would indicate "stuff" on the shutter curtain edges (lint, dust, grime) - or anything else making those edges rough and uneven - which changes the effective "slit width" between the curtains at those speeds enough to underexpose or darken the image a bit as they slide across during exposure.

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You can check the edges of the shutter curtains yourself, by inspecting them, with a magnifying glass, through the back trap-door or front lens mount with the shutter half-cocked so their join is in the center of the film opening.

Shutter tension could cause horizontal lines with vertically-travelling blade shutters (as in Nikon FM/FE cameras or Nikkormats) - but not the horizontally-travelling curtain shutters in Leica Ms for film.

[TomB_tx]

38 minutes ago, adan said:

Do the lines only appear in exposures made at the highest shutter speeds (1/500-1/000)? That would indicate "stuff" on the shutter curtain edges (lint, dust, grime) - or anything else making those edges rough and uneven - which changes the effective "slit width" between the curtains at those speeds enough to underexpose or darken the image a bit as they slide across during exposure.

The issue Adan points out is quite common on the older Barnack models where the cloth curtains wraparound the metal strips on the ends of the curtains. The rubber coating of the cloth can migrate and create the uneven "nubbins" that cause the issue. It's less likely on M bodies where the ends of the cloth curtains are contained within metal channels. But the slit is so narrow at 1/1000 that it still could be the case. Shoot a roll using primarily speeds slower speeds, with a few test pictures at 1/1000 and compare the effects.

[Mbak66]

Adan and Tom,

Thank you both so much for these replies! This is some very helpful info to check.

I inspected the curtain from both the rear trap door and from the from the lens side. I didn't see any debris, gunk, etc - but I'm sure that doesn't quite rule out debris as a possibility.

The two test rolls I shot today are at all different shutter speeds - so I'll be able to easily check if the issue is only occurring at certain speeds. I'll be getting the negatives back before end of day.

I checked the blank film between the frames - and I can't seem to see anything there. I even did a scan of the in-between space, and tried adjusting the levels in capture one. Even with moving the contrast and levels to extremes, I still can't see any visible markings between the frames. But the lines are so faint that perhaps they're there and just can't be detected in my scan setup. I'm attaching two reference photos for this.

Please note that on 2nd photo I'm attaching there are some very uneven vertical patches - I believe those are just some scan errors and unrelated to the horizontal lines that are actually visible on the negative.

 

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[Mbak66]

well good news!

I got the first test roll back from a new lab, and I cannot see any lines on the negatives with my eye or with my macro lens in the scan setup. I used shutter speeds between 1/8 and 1/1000, and no visible issue.

I'm going to count this as case closed, and that there isn't any issue with the camera.

Whether it was a piece of debris that eventually dislodged, or a lab issue - I don't think there is any certainty. 

But thankfully this last test roll looks good. I'll still be picking up and checking the 2nd test roll (hopefully today).

Thanks everyone for the advice and insight thus far!

Matt

[Mbak66]

Well, just when I think its over...

I scanned the two test rolls. There's no sign of it on test roll #1 at any shutter speed. However, I do see it very faint on test roll #2 (this is from a new lab). 

The lines are much more faint than the rolls from the original lab. 

They can be seen a little more clearly after adjusting the levels to extreme values. They appear on the lower left corner, as well as the the middle left side of the frame, and upper left corner.

They're appearing on all images on the 2nd test roll with shutter speeds of 1/500 and 1/1000.

It's puzzling because the 1st test roll came back clean.

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[69xchange]

I’d just bring it back to Leica for an exchange or warranty. Looks like curtain issues whether it’s debris or poor QC.

[svenb]

to me they look like drying marks, as the don't run absolutely straight across the frame. You might be able to se them looking at the film from different angles?

[hansvons]

On 3/10/2024 at 4:33 AM, Mbak66 said:

I scanned the two test rolls.

How do you scan? Scanning can introduce artefacts of many kinds. Stripes can come from the light source, the scanner, etc. You should be able to see these stripes on the negative with a proper loupe.