S3 vs S 007

[Pieter12]

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I have seen a good offer on what looks to me to be a new S3. I currently have an S 006 (well, 2 actually) so I have a number of lenses already. Besides the jump in resolution, are there other  major differences between the the S3 and the S 007? I would hope and assume since the S3 is a newer model that service and support would be available in the future for a longer time.

[davidmknoble]

Some don’t like the change.  I love the color output from the S3 in Capture1.  I don’t modify it much. I think it is more natural. Similar to the M11 output.  I kept my S007 and got an S3. S3 has the edge for me. 

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[414concrete]

I traded my 007 for an S3 in just less than three weeks. Reasons being, I’m in love with the system and since discontinued I wanted a newer unit believing all the earlier potential production issues which might show up in the future have been worked out in the newer unit, which will serve me longer into the future. This is based purely on conspiracy and years of manufacturing knowledge, not anything factual, just makes me feel better. Others will have far more user knowledge and experience between the two models than me, but my opinion is they are the same camera. IQ is improved slightly and video features I’ll never use unless I accidentally push the record button have been upgraded. 

[irenedp]

I had an S2 -still have- and about a year ago I bought a new S3 at a great price. 

It is very much the same camera with a slightly different color -but not too far-, a liveview (which is a blessing), better resolution (same thing for prints) and almost the same performance of the lenses. But on this I need to do a double click -it might just be that a higher resolution needs faster shutter speeds-.

I have not used rhe video yet. 

[Einst_Stein]

On 2/8/2024 at 1:55 PM, Pieter12 said:

I have seen a good offer on what looks to me to be a new S3. I currently have an S 006 (well, 2 actually) so I have a number of lenses already. Besides the jump in resolution, are there other  major differences between the the S3 and the S 007? I would hope and assume since the S3 is a newer model that service and support would be available in the future for a longer time.

I have exctly the same thought when K choose S3 over S 007. basically S3 has more MP (very minor point for me), slightly different color that is clained to be better for skin tones (but I dont buy that, whose skin tone?). Yes I paid  about 2X for S3. 

I just feel more comfortable since S3 is newer,

Edited February 9 by Einst_Stein

[LeicaR10]

Pieter12,   The major difference between the S007 and S3 IMO is the big improvement in the red channel.  Leica delayed fielding the S3 a year until they could get the red channel to be perfect.  The S3 sensor architecture was the basis for the M10-R as well.  IMO, the S3 has the best color that needs little to no processing compared to the other earlier models as David Noble mentionedi in his above post #2.   If you can get a S3 at a good price, I personally would not think twice about buying it.  IMO, the S3 is a keeper camera.  r/ Mark

[gael.e]

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Out of idle curiosity, how is diffraction handled differently between the cameras? I'm amazed at how usable every aperture is on the s007. Does diffraction negate the increase in resolution in the S3?

[414concrete]

I’m still wandering through my wooded property looking for color and detail to learn the S3. When playing with different RAW converters (C1, LR, and Apple Photos) I was quite surprised to see what a commanding lead LR had over C1. Leica must have given the RAW sauce recipe to Adobe because the LR S3 profile is gorgeous, and I haven’t liked LR color in years!

[LeicaR10]

Gaei.e,   Based on your post and first, welcome to the forum.  Second, during my many years using the S system cameras and lenses, diffraction was never an issue.  Of course, I rarely used the S lenses past f/11 to get excellent resolution with any of the S camera sensors.  You might recall, the S lenses do not need any optical firmware correction.  IMO all the S lenses are both optical engineering masterpieces and truly unique in their rendering.  r/ Mark

[davidmknoble]

Agree with @LeicaR10, I use the S lenses up to f/9 and f/11.  I have never experienced such ‘diffraction’ that it hurt the image, in both the S007 and S3.  Most of the time I am using between f/5.6 and f/11.  Great glass and the S3 pulls in a little more detail than the S007 as a result.

[epines]

A few other differences, from my offhand recollection right now: 

- S3 has a dual gain architecture for cleaner images at higher ISOs. This is a pretty significant one. 
- Maximum exposure time increased from 2 minutes to 8 minutes. Very clean long exposures. 
- The S3 will shoot 4K video using the entire sensor width, rather than a cropped area.

Anecdotally, I also think focusing is more accurate than on the 007, which I owned briefly.

[mgrayson3]

5 hours ago, epines said:

A few other differences, from my offhand recollection right now: 

- S3 has a dual gain architecture for cleaner images at higher ISOs. This is a pretty significant one. 
- Maximum exposure time increased from 2 minutes to 8 minutes. Very clean long exposures. 
- The S3 will shoot 4K video using the entire sensor width, rather than a cropped area.

Anecdotally, I also think focusing is more accurate than on the 007, which I owned briefly.

I also found the focusing better. Some lenses at some distances were always problematic on the 006 and 007. I got used to manually checking focus with live view. I noticed the better accuracy through not needing to correct as often.

Leica had to really improve the AF to deal with the higher resolution. The early beta S3's did quite badly. I'm glad they waited to release it until it was an actual improvement over the 007.

[gael.e]

Thank you Leica R10 for the welcome. This has been a good system for me

[LeicaR10]

Gael.e,   This is good news.  You will find there are a lot of knowledgable S photographers in the S forum that are most willing to part their sage advice when asked.  Enjoy shooting the S system.  Its truly a great camera system.   r/ Mark

[davidmknoble]

On 2/10/2024 at 6:50 AM, gael.e said:

Out of idle curiosity, how is diffraction handled differently between the cameras? I'm amazed at how usable every aperture is on the s007. Does diffraction negate the increase in resolution in the S3?

I’m not sure anyone answered this questions.  The S lenses, according to Leica AG, still have room to give with the S3 sensor.  They have suggested that 100mp sensor could still record more detail with these lenses than the S3.

So, I believe that while diffraction is present at higher f/stops, shooting with f/11 and f/13 has not shown less detail yet because we are not shooting near 100mp and the sensors in the S007 and S3 don’t pick up that part of the diffraction problem.  That said, the micro contrast is less at f/11 than f/2.8, but it is still better detail at the S3 over the S007.

Everything I read about other brand large format lenses is pretty well “great in the center, lacking in the corners” and I think Leica S prime lenses are the best out there at the moment by a large margin, even though they are older.

[tom0511]

Am 11.2.2024 um 12:30 schrieb mgrayson3:

I also found the focusing better. Some lenses at some distances were always problematic on the 006 and 007. I got used to manually checking focus with live view. I noticed the better accuracy through not needing to correct as often.

Leica had to really improve the AF to deal with the higher resolution. The early beta S3's did quite badly. I'm glad they waited to release it until it was an actual improvement over the 007.

AF accurancy with certain lenses (specially at medium distances) are one area where I have seen room for improvement for the S-System.

I own a S006 and S007, and have tested during betatest (at this time I had the impression not much if anything changed regarding AF accurancy).

Your comment does make some hope though. So I wonder if others here make the same experience like mgrayson - does you S3 also show better AF accurancy compared to previous models? Thanks, Tom    ....

[irenedp]

7 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

I’m not sure anyone answered this questions.  The S lenses, according to Leica AG, still have room to give with the S3 sensor.  They have suggested that 100mp sensor could still record more detail with these lenses than the S3.

So, I believe that while diffraction is present at higher f/stops, shooting with f/11 and f/13 has not shown less detail yet because we are not shooting near 100mp and the sensors in the S007 and S3 don’t pick up that part of the diffraction problem.  That said, the micro contrast is less at f/11 than f/2.8, but it is still better detail at the S3 over the S007.

Everything I read about other brand large format lenses is pretty well “great in the center, lacking in the corners” and I think Leica S prime lenses are the best out there at the moment by a large margin, even though they are older.

David, I agree tha t the S lenses are extremely good. They are far better than the first generation of Fuji GFX lenses, albeit about four to five times more expensive, and better than the old Mamiya 6x4.5. Said that, I think that they are no match to the blue ring Schneiders.

It is true that on the Phase you can focus to 500% in liveview and that is an advantage vs the 100% of the S3, but their ability to resolve detail is amazing. And both S lenses and Schneiders are on the same price range. 

I don’t have that many side by side images, but once the S3 is back from its Wetzlar trip I will do a few test images. 

[gael.e]

19 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

I’m not sure anyone answered this questions.  The S lenses, according to Leica AG, still have room to give with the S3 sensor.  They have suggested that 100mp sensor could still record more detail with these lenses than the S3.

Everything I read about other brand large format lenses is pretty well “great in the center, lacking in the corners” and I think Leica S prime lenses are the best out there at the moment by a large margin, even though they are older.

Quote

12 hours ago, irenedp said:

David, I agree tha t the S lenses are extremely good. They are far better than the first generation of Fuji GFX lenses, albeit about four to five times more expensive, and better than the old Mamiya 6x4.5. Said that, I think that they are no match to the blue ring Schneiders.

It is true that on the Phase you can focus to 500% in liveview and that is an advantage vs the 100% of the S3, but their ability to resolve detail is amazing. And both S lenses and Schneiders are on the same price range. 

I don’t have that many side by side images, but once the S3 is back from its Wetzlar trip I will do a few test images. 

 

 

That makes sense to me. Even if the blue-ring Schneider's are sharper, that system is not one I would trust to the elements. I am also not sure how many people have been able to properly compare the SL primes to the S lenses. I am quite certain this comparison has been talked about in these forums. If I am not mistaken, I think others arrived at the conclusion the SL primes were sharper. I am okay with that. I like the sharpness and falloff of the S glass. It renders every detail I've needed with no distracting smears or artifacts. 

 

 

[LeicaR10]

Gael.e,  The comparison between SL and S lenses are IMO, like apples and oranges for rendering.  The S lenses were designed by Leica in the mid-to late 2000s, from scratch with no optical firmware corrections needed for a digital medium format camera that was also designed and built from scratch.  At the time, the S camera was the only true digital ground up, MF camera when all the other brands at the time were add-on backs etc.  The SL camera and lenses are mirrorless and ten years more advanced in technology in all aspects.  Actually, both systems are remarkable achievements considering Leica was on the verge of extinction and saved by a visionary businessman, Dr Kaufmann.  Both cameras serve a niche.  The S camera is designed from professional fashion, portrait, landscape and some other genre types of photography needing medium format rendering.  The S camera and lenses are very unique in creating a cinematic rendering, unlike the SL camera and lenses.  Both camera systems are designed for applications that needed/wanted by different niche photographers.  Last, the Schneider lenses are different and quite bulky and heavy to carry for any distance, much moreso than S gear.  If one needs/wants a 100 Mp MF camera and lenses, there is a camera and Schneider Blue ring lenses waiting for your black AMEX card.  Right now, the S cameras and lenses are a bargin at many locations.  For those who wish to wait a year more...the S4 and lens system will arrive on scene.  Personally and from what I know, the wait will be well worth it.  In the meantime, those using the S system, I suggest you simply get out and create masterpiece MF photographs that will make the viewer;  Stop, Look, Think and Feel something about that moment in time.  r/ Mark

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[Stuart Richardson]

21 hours ago, tom0511 said:

AF accurancy with certain lenses (specially at medium distances) are one area where I have seen room for improvement for the S-System.

I own a S006 and S007, and have tested during betatest (at this time I had the impression not much if anything changed regarding AF accurancy).

Your comment does make some hope though. So I wonder if others here make the same experience like mgrayson - does you S3 also show better AF accurancy compared to previous models? Thanks, Tom    ....

I did not notice any difference in AF focus accuracy vs the S006. I think the problem was less the accuracy of the sensor itself, than the fact that it occupied too large an area of the frame. This means that close up when it is easier to fill the entire AF area with something at the right distance (a face, for example), it could focus accurately. But when you are at medium distance it often had both the object at medium distance and the foreground and background in the AF area, and it had to basically decide what point it was going to pay attention to. The AF area was the entire circle around the crosshairs, not the center of the crosshairs. At least that is what I was able to intuit from S focusing behavior over the ten years or so I was using one.

Regarding the SL lenses and optical corrections, I think it is a bit overstated, at least other than for the wides. I think people lump it in with the Q series, where the lens truly is unusable without correction. In order to design that lens as best they could at that time, size and price point, they added a bunch of correctable distortion. I don't think that is the case for most of the L lenses. If I recall, people have stripped the correction information from the raw files with the APO Summicrons, and they do not have a lot of correction other than the 28mm. That makes sense to me...I doubt Peter Karbe and his team are going to design a lens that needs a lot of digital correction unless he has to. Digital correction, even when it works, tends to diminish resolution, certainly not something evidenced with the APO Summicrons.

Edited February 15 by Stuart Richardson