Upgrade from MP 240?

[Jeff S]

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5 hours ago, hansvons said:

I guess you know that you are suffering from GAS. The variety from an X2D to a M240 to a Noctilux is quite a stretch and can't be explained only with improvement of one’s photography. 

 

Let’s add the SL2 and SL3 to the mix…

🤔

Jeff

[jaeger]

I have fun with my MP240 and love the RF experiences.  I have also learned its limitations, therefore instead of upgrading I move on to different systems.  Now I have most photography needs covered like focus speed, resolution, dynamic range,etc… I still keep the MP240 and 2 M lenses for few things that it’s good at.

I’m interested to know what are you expecting for upgrading to a newer M body?  

[Enbee]

2 hours ago, jaeger said:

I’m interested to know what are you expecting for upgrading to a newer M body?  

Thank you for your question. That’s a very good question.

 

Multiple reasons: 

1. My M feels a bit worn out after constant use. The skin is coming off and focus is off at times at times.
2. My current M is quite limited in low light conditions and I am hoping that with the new M things will be better. 
3. I have recently started to print my photographs and I thought better resolution may help with prints. 

I have used M for almost everything. It has been such a gift to work with this camera. 

What other systems do you recommend for shooting events (dance and sports), and low light photography. I also would love to know if you shoot landscape and what system do recommend for the same. 
 

Thank You again. 

[weatherproof]

8 hours ago, Enbee said:

On eBay M10-R shows about $7500 - is that the range? What’s a good price for this system?
 

 

That seems high for a used M10-R body, but I am not knowledgeable about international markets.

In the US, Leica Miami is selling the M10-P for $5495 USD (the M10-R is usually ~$500 more). They are also selling a used M11 for $6895 USD.

It seems like buying from Hong Kong might be a good option for you: 

 

[sometimesmaybe]

11 hours ago, Enbee said:

I have been again looking at X2D and was a bit too tempted

i dont have the hassie, but i have the fuji GFX. some things to bear in mind if you go down the AF medium format path:

1. the gear is bigger and heavier (think DSLR);
2. you'll be noticed (more so) in public;
3. your computer hardware will need to to be update date (for editing and processing raw images);
4. you'll spend more time editing (you're gonna have 100mp of picture and detail to deal with); and
5. (if you get the hassie) it will be harder to use your M or vintage glass (X2D uses a leaf shutter inside it's native glass). you'll need to work out if rolling shutter will be an issue for you. this is not an issue for caemeras like your mp240 and GFX (which uses a focal plane shutter inside the camera body)

[costa43]

Im not sure if you just want to scratch an itch or if you really need more than what you have already but It seems like improved iso performance is a priority judging by your original post. My 2 cents,  It might be worthwhile to consider replacing the sl with an sl2s over a noctilux and retaining the m240 for the rangefinder experience. The sl2s is the high iso colour champ in the Leica stable and it will also give you ibis and other real world improvements over what you have. Alternatively if you want increased iso performance in an M, then like others have mentioned, any m10 or m11 generation camera will give you this over the m240 gen.

The x2d looks fantastic and is going to give you the very best image quality out there from what I’ve seen. Not sure it’s the best in lowlight, others with hands on experience can chime in on this I’m sure. If the budget for the body and lenses is there then scratch the itch I guess!

Best of luck on your decision making,

Costa
 

[hansvons]

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16 hours ago, Enbee said:

1. My M feels a bit worn out after constant use. The skin is coming off and focus is off at times at times.
2. My current M is quite limited in low light conditions and I am hoping that with the new M things will be better. 
3. I have recently started to print my photographs and I thought better resolution may help with prints. 

Skins can be exchanged and range finders recalibrated. But your M240 will never become a lowlight monster.

As @costa43 said above, for lowlight, that’s the SL2-S in the Leica stable. In terms of image quality, it‘s Leica‘s best camera, despite the 24MP, which sounds underwhelming specs-wise. Yet I find the pixels' quality more important than their quantity. The smaller the pixels are, the less light they can take in at a given time. That‘s why high resolving sensors can’t compete in sensitivity with lower-resolving sensors of the same generation. The SL2-S sensor exhibits at ISO 800-3200 a pleasing texture and is invariant until ISO 6400. Then amplification kicks in and the sensor loses its character. That’s quite a performance. For a digital camera, the SL2-S produces shadows with an unparalleled amount of well-separated colour reproduction.

The SL2-S takes M lenses quite well and has a convenient magnifying system for critical focus plus IBIS, which I consider a game changer for low-light shootings.
 

24MP are plenty enough for large prints. In my experience, critical focus and lens characteristics trump sensor resolution any day. However, there are artists like Andreas Gursky whose works rely on high-detailed XL printing and therefore require a high resolution. But his pictures are seriously large. And on the flip side, there are super-famous pictures, printed large that were shot on 35mm colour film which resolves at best around 18MP. It’s all about the content. 

[Enbee]

11 minutes ago, hansvons said:

Skins can be exchanged and range finders recalibrated

Thank You! This is very useful. Do you know who does that for MP240? I searched online and got a couple of sites that do MP. Also, what do we do for recalibration - do we send it back to Leica, or are there others who do the same?

 

13 minutes ago, hansvons said:

that’s the SL2-S in the Leica stable

I will look more into SL2-S - seems like a fine upgrade. 

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, Enbee said:

Thank You! This is very useful. Do you know who does that for MP240? I searched online and got a couple of sites that do MP. Also, what do we do for recalibration - do we send it back to Leica, or are there others who do the same?

I haven't done it yet for my Ms because I bought them freshly CLAed (calibrate, lubricate, adjust). So, I can't recommend one specifically. But I know that quite a few around the globe specialise in M service, including Asia. Sending to Leica will yield excellent results but also high costs. Please search the forum and/or open a new thread. I'm sure you will be helped.

[RexGig0]

I will echo the recommendations to keep the Summilux, and to have the camera re-skinned and re-calibrated. I started with a Summilux-M 50mm ASPH almost six years ago; it was the lens that had lured me to add the Leica M system, and then, the lens with which I re-learned to love photographing people. Rangefinder mechanisms to tend to require occasional adjustment. My M10 was adjusted at Leica USA in New Jersey, though it was part of repair, after a fall, rather than by being necessary due to prolonged usage.

My first M camera being an original M10, I cannot offer experience-based advice on upgrading from the Type 240 sensor.

[Enbee]

On 2/4/2024 at 8:43 AM, hansvons said:

I haven't done it yet for my Ms because I bought them freshly CLAed (calibrate, lubricate, adjust). So, I can't recommend one specifically. But I know that quite a few around the globe specialise in M service, including Asia. Sending to Leica will yield excellent results but also high costs. Please search the forum and/or open a new thread. I'm sure you will be helped.

Thank You looking into one right now. Let’s see if I can find one that can help. 

[Enbee]

3 hours ago, RexGig0 said:

I will echo the recommendations to keep the Summilux, and to have the camera re-skinned and re-calibrated. I started with a Summilux-M 50mm ASPH almost six years ago; it was the lens that had lured me to add the Leica M system, and then, the lens with which I re-learned to love photographing people. Rangefinder mechanisms to tend to require occasional adjustment. My M10 was adjusted at Leica USA in New Jersey, though it was part of repair, after a fall, rather than by being necessary due to prolonged usage.

My first M camera being an original M10, I cannot offer experience-based advice on upgrading from the Type 240 sensor.

Thank You so much for sharing your experience. I am looking into it. 

[Jeremy Bunting]

The size of weight of the Noctilux range has been greatly exaggerated, and you will pry them from my cold, dead hands, especially the 50 f0.95.

[jaeger]

On 2/3/2024 at 10:16 AM, Enbee said:

Thank you for your question. That’s a very good question.

 

Multiple reasons: 

1. My M feels a bit worn out after constant use. The skin is coming off and focus is off at times at times.
2. My current M is quite limited in low light conditions and I am hoping that with the new M things will be better. 
3. I have recently started to print my photographs and I thought better resolution may help with prints. 

I have used M for almost everything. It has been such a gift to work with this camera. 

What other systems do you recommend for shooting events (dance and sports), and low light photography. I also would love to know if you shoot landscape and what system do recommend for the same. 
 

Thank You again. 

1) I like the look of my aging MP240 and it still takes wonderful pictures

2) I can't say how much better because I haven't tried any newer M bodies.

3) For sure the 60MP is better for larger prints

M system cannot do everything for sure.  If you are shooting in low light and moving subjects then you probably need a really reliable auto focus system.  That's why I got the Nikon Z8.  I almost nail everything shot of my dog fetching a ball using a 70-200 2.8s @f2.8 normally you don't shoot @2.8 for this situation but it passed my test anyway.  I still don't know how my camera predicts where my dog will go next but the 3D tracking works much better than the Z7 I previously owned.  See my test photos attached, it was hand held and super relax and causally done like how I use my iphone - amazing right!  (The photos are sorted in reversed order).  I know Sony A7 or A9 have better focus system if not par.  I'm interested to know if leica SL system is able to do this also, I didn't pick SL because it's way out of my budget. 

I have another system for studio shoot, it's a medium format 100MP camera.  The AF is slow, jerky and inaccurate in terms of object tracking but the images are stunning!

Disclaimer: I'm not recommending Z8, I'm just sharing my experience.  It's not nice doing this on a Leica forum - you know what I mean.  Good luck!

 

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Edited February 5, 2024 by jaeger

[Enbee]

I wanted to Thank all of you for your help and recommendation! I recently purchased SL2S. I am really enjoying the change from the SL. I will be selling the SL in some time. I can see how the camera feels in my hand, how the colors are rendered and how it handles low-light - which was the biggest thing I was looking for. I am looking forward to using it. 

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Edited March 2, 2024 by Enbee

[brickftl]

On 2/3/2024 at 5:53 AM, Almizilero said:

Usually I would recommend the M10 because that's what I did. But I upgraded for different reasons, and I feel the M10 won't do it for you. I would ecommend staying in the M system. There, you might want to upgrade to the M10-R or the M11. Since you used the M240 for a long time, you seem to be comfortable with keeping a camera that you enjoy. That meens if you have the funds, and plan to keep the new camera just as long, I'd go for the newest model (M11 or even M11-P).

wondering why you don't think the M10 will do it for him. If you're thinking that M10 won't do well for night/low light photography, I disagree based on experience with my M10. And if images are very noisy, they clean up nicely either with LR's AI de-noise or DXO Raw Prime. Some examples from my M10 https://brick.smugmug.com/Photography/2024-2-24-Key-West-eveningnight-

 

[Enbee]

55 minutes ago, brickftl said:

wondering why you don't think the M10 will do it for him. If you're thinking that M10 won't do well for night/low light photography, I disagree based on experience with my M10. And if images are very noisy, they clean up nicely either with LR's AI de-noise or DXO Raw Prime. Some examples from my M10 https://brick.smugmug.com/Photography/2024-2-24-Key-West-eveningnight-

 

Thank you for your message. These are beautiful images. I am happy with my 240 for now. Maybe in some time I will revisit the 240 upgrade. I always felt with the SL something was a miss. I am SL3 will be much better - however for my needs what I have is very good for now. 

[Almizilero]

vor 52 Minuten schrieb brickftl:

wondering why you don't think the M10 will do it for him. If you're thinking that M10 won't do well for night/low light photography, I disagree based on experience with my M10. And if images are very noisy, they clean up nicely either with LR's AI de-noise or DXO Raw Prime. Some examples from my M10 https://brick.smugmug.com/Photography/2024-2-24-Key-West-eveningnight-

 

Well, he was looking for “significantly better experience or better photographs”. While the camera is still only a tool, I guess that someone who uses a camera for 9 years and obviously has the funds (considering medium format) might just go for the newest model and enjoy it for the next 10 years.
For myself, the M10 was a good step up from the M240, the benefits of the newer models were not worth the higher price for me. And yeah, AI image clean up is nice, but you can also use it on M11 files and expand their low light capabilities even further

 

[jaeger]

I am traveling today my M240P + 24 Lux are in the bag. 

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Hallo,

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[brickftl]

On 3/2/2024 at 10:09 AM, Almizilero said:

Well, he was looking for “significantly better experience or better photographs”. While the camera is still only a tool, I guess that someone who uses a camera for 9 years and obviously has the funds (considering medium format) might just go for the newest model and enjoy it for the next 10 years.
For myself, the M10 was a good step up from the M240, the benefits of the newer models were not worth the higher price for me. And yeah, AI image clean up is nice, but you can also use it on M11 files and expand their low light capabilities even further

 

my big concern with the M11 is the significant number of lockups and bricking that has been reported even with the newest production units. It's virtually the same problem plaguing the Q3. As such, were I him, I'd either go with one of the M10 models or wait for the M13 3 or 4 years down the road (maybe sooner?). Money wasn't an object when I purchased my first M in the middle of February. I could have easily gotten a new M11, but because of those problems I steered clear of it. And I also could easily have purchased the M10R, but for me and without giving all the reasons that I've expressed on other posts I chose the M10 at 24 mps rather than M10R with 40+ mps.