Filters v's Dodge & Burn

[robsonj]

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I've owned a Q2m for a few years now, owned twice actually, having sold it once, then repurchased around the time that adobe turbo boosted the masking tools in LR classic.

I'm about to take delivery of a M11m and before purchasing color filters for my M lenses, I was wondering how many people still use color filters? I know on my Q2m, I have veered away from using color filters in preference to the LR classic masking tools that are now available. 

I'm sure there are many that swear by color filters, but are there people that lean on the masking tools more these days now that they are as good as they are? 

Cheers

Jonathan

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[pippy]

I always prefer to capture as much 'in camera' as possible so use colour contrast filters.

Philip.

[RexGig0]

I use colored filters, when shooting monochrome images.

I have remained away from post-processing, as much as possible. I simply dislike computers, with each software update seeming to increase this dislike.

I am not any kind of expert.

I remember thinking that when I retired, I would heft a computer onto my shoulder, and march inland, toward the mountains. When I would finally meet a local resident, who did not know what a computer was, I planned to dig a hole, bury the computer, and settle in that spot, to live the rest of my life. (Yes, borrowed from Homer’s Odyssey.) Digital photography, and the need for e-mail to communicate effectively, of course, forced a modification of that plan, but I still prefer to minimize the time I spend at a computer. Therefore, colored filters.

Edited December 28, 2023 by RexGig0

[robsonj]

10 minutes ago, RexGig0 said:

I use colored filters, when shooting monochrome images.

I have remained away from post-processing, as much as possible. I simply dislike computers, with each software update seeming to increase this dislike.

I am not any kind of expert.

I remember thinking that when I retired, I would heft a computer onto my shoulder, and march inland, toward the mountains. When I would finally meet a local resident, who did not know what a computer was, I planned to dig a hole, bury the computer, and settle in that spot, to live the rest of my life. (Yes, borrowed from Homer’s Odyssey.) Digital photography, and the need for e-mail to communicate effectively, of course, forced a modification of that plan, but I still prefer to minimize the time I spend at a computer. Therefore, colored filters.

A fair stance, but I would say that dodging and burning has been historically and is a fundamental post processing step, its just made easier with digital now

[RobW0]

32 minutes ago, robsonj said:

A fair stance, but I would say that dodging and burning has been historically and is a fundamental post processing step, its just made easier with digital now

Dodging and burning are different than using colored filters when taking pictures on black and white film or a monochrome digital sensor. The filters are changing how the different colors of light are seen by the monochromatic film or sensor. That can only be done while taking the monochromatic photo. Dodging and burning is a post processing tool used on the shadows and highlights in the black and white picture.

[sometimesmaybe]

2 hours ago, robsonj said:

I'm about to take delivery of a M11m and before purchasing color filters for my M lenses, I was wondering how many people still use color filters?

i did use yellow green / yellow / orange filters for all my portraits, but the slight changes in contrast and skin tone etc can be easily done in post. that said i can see filters being more useful doing landscape, when you want that dark sky / white cloud kinda look.   

[250swb]

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Using colour filters and dodging and burning are two different ways of adjusting the tonal range, filters adjust the overall tonal range, and with dodging and burning adjusting the local tones. Use both, they aren't mutually exclusive.

In a film image a filter would be used to perhaps lighten green foliage or darken a blue sky, within that you'd dodge to lighten detail and contrast in local areas and burn to darken and hold back an area. They are traditional darkroom techniques that all the masters used. The same can be done with M11m images except the effect of filters isn't as great, but they are still usable. Masking tools are simply an Adobe way to do similar things, although the simple darkroom equivalent tools for dodging and burning are available in Photoshop. But 'straight out of the camera' has never ever been the traditional way to make a fine photograph whether an Ansel Adams landscape or a Don McCullin portrait from Vietnam.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

And here is a web page perfectly showing what went on in the darkroom

https://fstoppers.com/post-production/how-photos-were-edited-darkroom-days-2994

with photos of James Dean, Audrey Hepburn and Mohammed Ali.

Edited December 28, 2023 by 250swb

[AceVentura1986]

I have a yellow, orange and red filter. Of the three, the yellow stays on my lens almost exclusively. I find that it greatly compliments human skin regardless of the person’s complexion. The red I reserve for landscape shots when I want to darken the sky. I’ve found the yellow to have too subtle an effect to be valuable, at least to me. Of course, YMMV. 

[ramarren]

Adjusting tonal contrasts in post processing with a monochromatic sensor (or B&W film) cannot produce the same effect as using B&W color contrast filters to adjust the balance of what's recorded between two colors in similar illumination. There's just not enough information in the original capture to do so. 

Below see a swatch image and a graphs image to compare the results with five filters (Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, and Blue) :: You can see that the color adjustment filters affect color to grayscale relationships across the board. These adjustments cannot be replicated in an actual scene with selection/adjustment processing, although you could do that with this simple test and monotoned color swatches... 

So yes: Use color filters with monochrom sensors to adjust color to grayscale relationships.

G

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Edited January 16, 2024 by ramarren

[Stevejack]

On 12/30/2023 at 9:21 AM, AceVentura1986 said:

I have a yellow, orange and red filter. Of the three, the yellow stays on my lens almost exclusively. I find that it greatly compliments human skin regardless of the person’s complexion. The red I reserve for landscape shots when I want to darken the sky. I’ve found the yellow to have too subtle an effect to be valuable, at least to me. Of course, YMMV. 

Reading this it's not clear - you say the yellow filter is on your lens exclusively but then you also say the yellow is too subtle to have an effect to be valuable.  Did you mean you use the orange filter stays on your lens?

If so, I've found the same. Yellow is a bit weak, red is too harsh for most things, but I like the effect of the orange quite a bit. I should use it more but so rarely ever put it on the lens. 

[robsonj]

45 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

Reading this it's not clear - you say the yellow filter is on your lens exclusively but then you also say the yellow is too subtle to have an effect to be valuable.  Did you mean you use the orange filter stays on your lens?

If so, I've found the same. Yellow is a bit weak, red is too harsh for most things, but I like the effect of the orange quite a bit. I should use it more but so rarely ever put it on the lens. 

I think he means, yellow stays on, but for landscapes, it’s too subtle, so he uses red

[AceVentura1986]

On 1/18/2024 at 7:51 PM, Stevejack said:

Reading this it's not clear - you say the yellow filter is on your lens exclusively but then you also say the yellow is too subtle to have an effect to be valuable.  Did you mean you use the orange filter stays on your lens?

If so, I've found the same. Yellow is a bit weak, red is too harsh for most things, but I like the effect of the orange quite a bit. I should use it more but so rarely ever put it on the lens. 

My mistake. I meant ORANGE. The yellow is too weak, imho. The red is too strong, except for certain landscapes. The ORANGE filter is the one that stays on nearly all the time. It is, imho, the Goldilocks of filters. 

Sorry for the confusion. 

[pippy]

10 minutes ago, AceVentura1986 said:

...I meant ORANGE. The yellow is too weak, imho. The red is too strong, except for certain landscapes. The ORANGE filter is the one that stays on nearly all the time. It is, imho, the Goldilocks of filters...

I'm pretty much with you there, Ace, if the weather / sunshine here in London is suited to using the Orange. In fact if the sunshine is clear and strong enough and the sky is clear and blue enough then results from the Orange can almost resemble those produced by using a Red.

By way of an illustration here's a snap grabbed whilst out on Friday last week. M Monochrom with the regular Leitz Orange on a 28mm Elmarit. Processing-out of the DNG apart the sky has not been further enhanced in Post-Prod in any way;

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Philip.

[AceVentura1986]

In Miami we usually have more than our share of sunlight so red or orange will do nicely. For me, the orange filter stays on most of the time, even indoors. I find that it really compliments all skin tones. 

[hirohhhh]

On 12/28/2023 at 9:17 PM, 250swb said:

Using colour filters and dodging and burning are two different ways of adjusting the tonal range, filters adjust the overall tonal range, and with dodging and burning adjusting the local tones. Use both, they aren't mutually exclusive.

In a film image a filter would be used to perhaps lighten green foliage or darken a blue sky, within that you'd dodge to lighten detail and contrast in local areas and burn to darken and hold back an area. They are traditional darkroom techniques that all the masters used. The same can be done with M11m images except the effect of filters isn't as great, but they are still usable. Masking tools are simply an Adobe way to do similar things, although the simple darkroom equivalent tools for dodging and burning are available in Photoshop. But 'straight out of the camera' has never ever been the traditional way to make a fine photograph whether an Ansel Adams landscape or a Don McCullin portrait from Vietnam.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

And here is a web page perfectly showing what went on in the darkroom

https://fstoppers.com/post-production/how-photos-were-edited-darkroom-days-2994

with photos of James Dean, Audrey Hepburn and Mohammed Ali.

A bit off-topic, but sticky notes make it really interesting. Perhaps the concept could be a diptych with sticky notes on one side and the final version on the right side, framed together. Additionally, you're showing the most significant elements: the face, hands, and a hint of the gun, effectively conveying the entire story.

[pippy]

20 minutes ago, hirohhhh said:

A bit off-topic, but sticky notes make it really interesting. Perhaps the concept could be a diptych with sticky notes on one side and the final version on the right side, framed together. Additionally, you're showing the most significant elements: the face, hands, and a hint of the gun, effectively conveying the entire story.

Actually I don't think this is off-topic at all. Seeing a 'Straight' print(*) compared with an 'Exhibition' print is always a fascinating experience.

On seeing the 'Ansel Adams at 100' retrospective exhibition it was fascinating to compare several prints displayed next to one another showing different "Performances" from the same negative made over a period of several decades as Ansel changed / honed / tweaked his own interpretation of the "Score" as these years went by. Oddly enough in most cases I found myself preferring the earlier - less overtly dramatic - prints.

But this matter has been discussed previously.

Ansel Adams has also shown comparisons of prints made from different negatives exposed at roughly the same time where different filters were used - the famous version of 'Monolith - the Face of Half-Dome' being amongst them. I'd have to check through the bookcase but, IIRC, he shot some sheets with either nothing; then a Yellow; then finally a Kodak Wratten Red which was the one used to make the prints as we know them today.

Philip.

* For various - and obvious - reasons this concept is, in itself, flawed...

Edited January 22, 2024 by pippy

[robsonj]

9 hours ago, pippy said:

I'm pretty much with you there, Ace, if the weather / sunshine here in London is suited to using the Orange. In fact if the sunshine is clear and strong enough and the sky is clear and blue enough then results from the Orange can almost resemble those produced by using a Red.

By way of an illustration here's a snap grabbed whilst out on Friday last week. M Monochrom with the regular Leitz Orange on a 28mm Elmarit. Processing-out of the DNG apart the sky has not been further enhanced in Post-Prod in any way;

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Philip.

It looks like we were photographing at the same time this weekend, same moon 🙂

 

[charlesphoto99]

The Magnum agency have a series of 'darkroom' prints they have been selling with the printers mark ups: https://www.magnumphotos.com/shop/collections/darkroom-prints/

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[John Robinson]

On the M Monochrom (M9M) the Orange filter seems to be a perfect match and I leave it on the lens most of the time.  By comparison, when shooting monochrome film (mostly XP2) I find a standard yellow filter adequate most of the time and it is certainly easier to focus an SLR through yellow than orange (irrelevant on a film M where orange is very effective).  I use Capture One and have yet to find a method of adjustment on M-Mono files that can emulate the use of a filter at the point of taking the shot.  Adjusting colour files when converting to monochrome, on the other hand, does give quite a few options to emulate the use of filters.

[t00l1024]

6 hours ago, pippy said:

Ansel Adams has also shown comparisons of prints made from different negatives exposed at roughly the same time where different filters were used - the famous version of 'Monolith - the Face of Half-Dome' being amongst them. I'd have to check through the bookcase but, IIRC, he shot some sheets with either nothing; then a Yellow; then finally a Kodak Wratten Red which was the one used to make the prints as we know them today.

Ansel had two plates remaining on his hike that day for Monolith. Took one with a yellow filter (realized his mistake), and his second/last one was with a red.

There's a ton of great information in the thread. I'm appreciative of all the comments. 👍

I'm on my third Monochrom, and feel there are subtle differences between each sensor and might have different formulas for each. Currently, I have a M11M and a variety of lenses that vary in contrast intensity that gets factored into one part of my equation. Second factor is whether the scene is naturally contrast-y and whether I want that or not. Last factor is whether I want a scene to be "overly dramatic" or not. Landscapes with thunderclouds might benefit from a dramatic orange or red filter. I also like turning empty skies nearly black, similar to some of the examples posted in this thread.

My belief is "it depends" and whether you want to be subtle or dramatic, the lens you're using, and what output you hope to get.