Leica S System Dead - Forever?

[Jan1985]

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Hi guys,

it‘s sad that Leica has brough it‘s S-System to the graveyard. I had an S007 with the 100 Cron, the 120 and the 70. Such wonderful lenses and imagery. 

It‘s hard to see that Leica has discontinued the S3 and didnt develop any new lens update in the lineup in the last years. But these sensors and lenses were so nice and wonderful. 

Do you think - they S system will come back to live one day?

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[jaapv]

Doubtful - sensors have come such a long way in resolution that the full frame has taken over a large part of the use of larger sensors, shrinking the niche of the S system. Leica owns Sinar for "real" medium format. My best guess is that the S system is not sustainable financially.

[LeicaR10]

Jan1985,   I sent you a PM.  The S system is NOT dead.  The S4 and system is in development now per various interviews with Leica top management.  r/ Mark

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, LeicaR10 said:

The S4 and system is in development now per various interviews with Leica top management.  r/ Mark

really? that's great news! which interview?

 

"Je pense que Fujifilm a toujours été très fort dans le moyen format hybride. Nous, pour le moment, on arrête le S3, mais je pense qu’il y aura des projets pour un futur S4.Quand est-ce que ça arrivera ? Ce n’est pas demain, ce n’est pas dans un horizon proche. Je ne pense pas qu’on verra cela en 2024, je ne sais pas pour 2025, mais je sais que Leica a des projets en termes d’appareils photo hybrides dans le moyen format."

>>I think Fujifilm has always been very strong in hybrid medium format. For the moment, we are stopping S3, but I think there will be plans for a future S4. When will that happen? It's not tomorrow, it's not in the near future. I don't think we will see this in 2024, I don't know about 2025, but I know that Leica has plans in terms of mirrorless cameras in the medium format.

 

https://phototrend.fr/2023/10/interview-leica-salon-de-la-photo-2023/

 

https://phototrend.fr/2023/09/interview-dr-andreas-kaufmann-proprietaire-leica/

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by frame-it

[doc steel]

Thats the core of Mr. Kaufmanns statement:
I don't think we will see this in 2024, I don't know about 2025, but I know that Leica has plans in terms of mirrorless cameras in the medium format.
Any other plan that Leica would pursue here would be a step backwards in development.
Leica has already pointed out elsewhere that the S lenses can then continue to be used with an adapter that will also come from Leica.
This statement alone suggests that there will be no continuation of the S camera in its current form.
Anything else would be completely absurd.

 

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, doc steel said:

Thats the core of Mr. Kaufmanns statement:
I don't think we will see this in 2024, I don't know about 2025, but I know that Leica has plans in terms of mirrorless cameras in the medium format.
Any other plan that Leica would pursue here would be a step backwards in development.
Leica has already pointed out elsewhere that the S lenses can then continue to be used with an adapter that will also come from Leica.
This statement alone suggests that there will be no continuation of the S camera in its current form.
Anything else would be completely absurd.

 

that's what i thought too. so i was wondering what other recent interviews there are to confirm its under development.>>>

3 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

The S4 and system is in development now per various interviews with Leica top management.  r/ Mark

 

[ynp]

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5 hours ago, jaapv said:

Leica owns Sinar for "real" medium format.

Interesting. I was sure that Sinar had been dead for a while. No new products in real medium format for at least three years. 
 

Leica is selling luxury nowadays. 
p.s. I will keep my s3

Edited December 17, 2023 by ynp

[BernardC]

Several Leica execs have mentioned a mirrorless S3 replacement, coming in 2025 at the earliest. Some of it is very specific, like pointing-out that the S system replacement will be able to use S lenses via an adapter. That's not something an executive invents out of thin air during an interview.

To answer the original question: there won't be any new S-system SLR bodies, but Leica is developing a new medium format mirrorless camera. This camera will be compatible with your S lenses, via an adapter.

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

Jan1985,   I sent you a PM.  The S system is NOT dead.  The S4 and system is in development now per various interviews with Leica top management.  r/ Mark

As you’ve written…

Jeff

[cirofrankschiappa]

First of all if it's dead it's dead. Of course it's dead forever. But the main question is? for who? for you? what do you miss?
Leica has not officially abandoned the system and still offers repairs (although no longer free) of S lenses and responds very quickly to emails, I must say. That everything then moved towards the electronic viewfinder is a fact and is proven by the sales of cameras. The point in my opinion is that we have generally reached a stalemate in the medium format market in general.
Let's take an example of the Fujifilm gfx 100 II. It's a camera  that's very popular right now, you have to book with a couple of months and wait, but what's new about it?
The sensor is the usual one. The one of the "ancient gfx 100" with some fake improvements that marketing passed off as revolutionary. The whole web talks about it but it continues to sell. Until when do I say? We have reached saturation and if the camera sensor doesn't change and remains the same size I don't see anything new on the horizon. Yes they offer us an extra stop of dynamic range and 8k video at 120 ftp but what are the real photographic innovations?
If we come from analogue medium format we are not looking for 20 frames per second and an autofocus that focuses on the pupil of a Formula One driver during a foggy day.

 I believe that the only new thing in recent medium format apart from the x1d and gfx system is the 30mm Shift lens from Fujifilm, a lens that everyone has been waiting for- for a very long time -and that everyone has been asking for for too long (even from Leica).

[Stuart Richardson]

Regarding Sinar, I think there is a shop or two in Switzerland where you can source certain items still, and I think they manufacture certain more basic parts, but I doubt that they are really working on much new at this point. One of the problems is that their new prices are stratospheric and there are tons of parts on the market for very low prices because they were ubiquitous. The last thing they have on their website was the Sinarback S30/45 from 2016, which was basically a stripped down S007 in digital back form. Can't imagine it was a particularly hot seller. I was trying to source things a year or two ago and the impression was that they were in operation, but at a very low level. Basically servicing existing customers and spare parts. But I would be very happy to be proven wrong. On the Leica side, it does not seem like they are doing anything with it at this point. Probably gave it a shot with the S30/45 and the Sinar PM3 (I think that is what the S mount for the P cameras was), but got little interest. It kind of sucks, because the S was quite poorly suited to being mounted on a view camera...the mirror means you have to use quite long lenses for the format, and the shutter causes so much vibration that it shakes the whole monorail, making it hard to get good results at anything other than very high speeds (or with flash). Meanwhile, the SL2 would be brilliant on a monorail because it has no mirror and has an electronic shutter. But Leica never offered any version for it on a Sinar, which suggests to me that they saw essentially no market. Seems like Novoflex has taken that very small chunk of the market. The full view cameras are just a harder sell for most people now since there are very few view camera lenses made anymore, copal does not make shutters and 95% of work can be done with mirrorless cameras and either compositing or digital perspective correction, or even just adapted T/S lenses etc.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Stuart Richardson

[Jon Warwick]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

 The full view cameras are just a harder sell for most people now since there are very few view camera lenses made anymore, copal does not make shutters and 95% of work can be done with mirrorless cameras and either compositing or digital perspective correction, or even just adapted T/S lenses etc.

I’m only just starting to explore what Leica’s in-camera perspective control can do, but early thoughts are that it works rather well. Nice to compose the image with the perspective applied before taking the shot; also impressed at just how little image quality is lost in ACR after employing the correction. You’d assume all the bending of the image wouldn’t be too good, but I’m left wondering if doing such corrections digitally is actually a pretty decent way to do it, compared to the alternative of often using the less perfect “outer edges” of a large image circle lens when employing front rise on the camera or when using a TS lens. 

[Stuart Richardson]

I think the biggest loss is the compositional one...doing it in camera and being able to see it ahead of time. I definitely don't want to say there are no more reason for view cameras or tech cams, ( I still use my large format all the time), but I just think the use case for the big studio monorails has shrunk enough that they are not as common. Certainly they are also less of a feature in photo schools and not as many younger photographers are familiar, so I think that also leads to lower sales. In any case, I think as phones have come and eaten up much of the market for compact casual cameras for the general public, high resolution mirrorless cameras and full time live view cameras have come in and eaten up the market for big monorails.

[davidmknoble]

I tend to think @Stuart Richardson that two things have caused the slowdown in medium format OVF.  First, film systems, even Hasselblad film systems are large and clunky to take especially with a few film backs, so air travel (film and X-rays not the least) makes it harder to work with.  I also think the time it takes to setup and craft a shot is not in many of the younger generations desires.

I love the craft, and part of it is making the image in camera and then making the image all the way through printing. However, there are times where I love the simple, IBIS, fast capture and completion.  Mirrorless will travel much better and speed up the process I think.

Agreed with your assessment.

[BernardC]

The other factor is that most of the MF SLR systems are old film-era designs. The S is the only one that isn't, and it still isn't very young.

Tooling doesn't last forever, so manufacturers are faced with the decision to invest in new designs and tooling, stick with the old, or drop the segment altogether.

PhaseOne's prices are high enough, and their volumes low enough, that they can probably keep selling their SLR for a while. Their main hardware products are the backs, not cameras. The SLR line will probably be discontinued when a key piece of production equipment is too worn-out, too expensive to replace, or impossible to source. After all, it's based on the 1999 Mamiya 645AF.

Leica and Hasselblad's decision to switch to mirrorless makes sound business sense. The alternative is to invest millions in a new SLR platform that will sell a few hundred units in a good year.

All in all, medium format digital SLRs had a great run, if you consider that they were based on such old foundations.

[Stuart Richardson]

I think the other major factor is that as resolution increases into the extremely high areas it is now, adding a mirror is simply not precise enough to fully get the most out of the system. I know others have had better luck, but my S3's mirror was not accurate to the actual focus on the sensor. The AF system was, but not the mirror/manual focus. I found the same with both my S2 and S006. They were very close, but ever so slightly off. Try that at 150mp with a back that snaps on and off, and it is that much more challenging. Mirrorless makes the problem just go away completely, and all that extremely precise engineering and manufacturing just goes away. An OVF is a beautiful thing, but I think that mirrorless just makes a lot of sense, especially at the highest end of resolution, as it is confirming the peak image quality on the actual final image, rather than trying to use an intermediate reference. The other major factor is that ten fifteen years ago, medium format digital would give you 40+ megapixels which could make a spotless highly detailed exhibition print or poster, billboard, full page spread etc, while most high end 35mm was at 18-24mp, with a lot more noise too. The fact is that almost no photographer NEEDS medium format anymore. It can certainly help and elevate the work, but 35mm has become so good that for nuts and bolts commercial work it is more than enough for the vast majority of pros. For those who it is not, they can get a GFX or X2D for close to the same price that they could buy something like a D3/D4, Canon 1D series etc.

[irenedp]

I have obtained pretty nice results regarding focus with the S3 -easier than the S2 because of the liveview and the focusing aids (like zooming to 100%). 

Regarding 150 MP I have excellent results with the IQ4. First, because you can zoom at 500% in manual to achieve focus, and second because it can shoot with the mirror up and the sysmograph on. The quality of focus is extraordinary. Probably the lenses help too  

I didn’t get anything close to the Phase One with the GFX 100. It was on par with the S3.

Being mirrorless takes one problem off the table, but I think there are other factors that matter more. 

[Stuart Richardson]

Well that is what I mean...you are essentially using it as a mirrorless camera when you are using live view or with the mirror up. I guess there is a good case to be made for having the flexibility to do both, but at least in my experience the mirror alone is generally not enough for critical focus...at least in highly demanding work. Anyway, I am glad there are still SLR options at least in some camera lines.

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[irenedp]

Yes, the mirror up and the liveview zooms are a way to get around the mirror snap. I suppose that the future in any scenario is mirrorless, just because you take one potential negative factor out of the equation 🙂

[Pieter12]

There is a generation nor so now that is so comfortable with smartphone photography where you hold the phone at arm's length to take a picture, they even do the same holding a DSLR or mirrorless camera that way. Not for me.

There is nothing like composing on a big optical viewfinder screen, right up to your eye. Even if 35mmFF sensors may have tremendous resolution, the viewfinder is still small in comparison. And a LF screen is just too dim. MF with an optical prism finder is ideal as far as I a concerned. EVFs are just too removed from the scene, from the shooting experience. The rest of the world may not agree, and technically the whole optical system is complicated, bulky and heavy, but I'm old enough and set in my ways that I don't care. I just hope the equipment I have holds up for as long as I can still photograph, because the likelihood of any of it being serviceable in the near future is dismal.