Lumix S5II Auto Focus

[helged]

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Hi folks! Anyone with the S5ii to chime on on the auto focus performance/improvement over eg S5. I am particularly interested in learning how continuous AF works for wild life photography, like for birds in flight.

[Babylonia]

No experience, but check e.g.

Panasonic S5II Review for Wildlife/Bird Photography   (YouTube starting at point of autofocus talking / testing)

Also related in general to autofocus are the settings:   BEST Autofocus Settings for LUMIX S5II

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[lukeadair]

Have no experience with birds, but the autofocus performance overall is exemplary. IMHO, it is quite superior to my SL2s.

[helged]

Thanks to @Babylonia and @lukeadair!

Although I have followed S5ii from the side; I haven't fully appreciated the improved continuous AF. It is tempting to run a test; I'll check whether the local store has a body for (short-term) loan/test.

The forthcoming Leica SL3 will likely integrate (most of) the AF technology from S5ii, but with higher sensor resolution in SL3 one can expect less fast and/or accurate cAF on SL3. So perhaps a lower-resolution version of SL3 (SL3-S or something similar), possibly coming in 2025, may be the Leica-body to match S5ii when it comes to cAF.

[hofo100]

I have upgraded from S5 to S5II but I am not into wild life photography and in 99,9% of my photography I am using AF-S with manual selection of focus point. However, from just playing around a bit I can confirm that the S5II autofocus has improved significantly over the S5 in all respects and that it also beats the SL2 AF - but as said before - I am a "slow" photographer who does not care about AF-Speed in general...

[ruskkyle]

I can only compare the relative S5 II and CL autofocus performance for you, which is a very similar story.

The S5 II tracking for animals is incredible.

[SrMi]

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On 12/18/2023 at 3:59 PM, helged said:

Thanks to @Babylonia and @lukeadair!

Although I have followed S5ii from the side; I haven't fully appreciated the improved continuous AF. It is tempting to run a test; I'll check whether the local store has a body for (short-term) loan/test.

The forthcoming Leica SL3 will likely integrate (most of) the AF technology from S5ii, but with higher sensor resolution in SL3 one can expect less fast and/or accurate cAF on SL3. So perhaps a lower-resolution version of SL3 (SL3-S or something similar), possibly coming in 2025, may be the Leica-body to match S5ii when it comes to cAF.

Why would a higher resolution imply worse focus accuracy? AFAIK, that is not the case with Sony and Nikon models available in lower and higher resolutions.

[helged]

10 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Why would a higher resolution imply worse focus accuracy? AFAIK, that is not the case with Sony and Nikon models available in lower and higher resolutions.

Depending on the capacity and speed of the image processor. Leica could, of course, juice-up their Maestro processor. But I am not overly optimistic in that respect (but I gladly accept to be wrong...).

 Another, related issue with increased processor power is heating. Leica has been quite careful to control heating of the sensor. Lumix S5II has got a fan, something Leica hasn't used up to now AFAIK. Clearly Leica can go this Route, but the company tebds to be somewhat conservative in these respects.

Edited December 22, 2023 by helged

[SrMi]

16 minutes ago, helged said:

Depending on the capacity and speed of the image processor. Leica could, of course, juice-up their Maestro processor. But I am not overly optimistic in that respect (but I gladly accept to be wrong...).

 Another, related issue with increased processor power is heating. Leica has been quite careful to control heating of the sensor. Lumix S5II has got a fan, something Leica hasn't used up to now AFAIK. Clearly Leica can go this Route, but the company tebds to be somewhat conservative in these respects.

For AF accuracy and speed, the camera needs to read only PDAF points. Sony just launched two models (33MP and 61MP), and nobody reports any difference in AF accuracy.

AFAIK, lower resolution sensors were always better for video. I wish Leica would launch an SL3-S with video and an SL3 without video.

[jaapv]

43 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Why would a higher resolution imply worse focus accuracy? AFAIK, that is not the case with Sony and Nikon models available in lower and higher resolutions.

Not necessarily. But, like all other image problems - motion blur, DOF, etc., users blowing up 50+ MP photographs to 100% on 27" screens will be able to see any problems that were always there, but unnoticed.

[BernardC]

4 hours ago, SrMi said:

For AF accuracy and speed, the camera needs to read only PDAF points.

Phase detect systems provide speed, but not accuracy. They all have a hard physical limit of what f-stop they can "see." For instance, a sensor that can see 2.8 will black-out at 4.0, like an old split-image viewing screen (and for the same reason). The same 2.8 sensor focuses a 1.4 lens as-if it were stopped-down to 2.8. Technically it's the exit pupil size that is the limitation, but this corresponds to f-stops.

AF cameras switch to contrast detection when they need accuracy, or when they have enough spare CPU cycles.

5 hours ago, helged said:

Leica could, of course, juice-up their Maestro processor. But I am not overly optimistic in that respect

We know that Leica and Panasonic will both use a new generation of processors in future cameras. The processor in the S5ii is the first in this series.

[helged]

2 hours ago, BernardC said:

Phase detect systems provide speed, but not accuracy. They all have a hard physical limit of what f-stop they can "see." For instance, a sensor that can see 2.8 will black-out at 4.0, like an old split-image viewing screen (and for the same reason). The same 2.8 sensor focuses a 1.4 lens as-if it were stopped-down to 2.8. Technically it's the exit pupil size that is the limitation, but this corresponds to f-stops.

AF cameras switch to contrast detection when they need accuracy, or when they have enough spare CPU cycles.

We know that Leica and Panasonic will both use a new generation of processors in future cameras. The processor in the S5ii is the first in this series.

+1. As of now, I use Canon R5 with RF 100-500mm F4.5-7.1 when cAF is convenient. The cAF works fine with this combo, almost on par with a 400mm f2.8 lens (based on past experience with Nikon D5 and their 400mm lens). As soon as there is something usable in L-mount, I will switch. Currently, S5ii, possibly with Sigma 60-600 DG DN, is an option. I plan to test S5ii with some of the L-mount lenses I use on SL2-S. 

[Archiver]

As an aside, significant improvements in the the S5 II autofocus irritate me a bit. Why?

1. I use the S5 for sports photography. It has a reasonable hit rate, but of course it could be better. The S5 II's autofocus seems to solve this problem. Phase detection also seems to make adapted EF mount lenses focus much, much better. As I use a number of EF lenses with my S5, this would also be very helpful, perhaps even saving me from buying the native counterparts to get better AF performance.

2. But, I also use the S5 for video work, and the S5 II's video quality seems to be lesser than the S5/S1/S1H. There is a loss of fine detail in S5 II and the recent Panasonic G9 II, and I want all the image quality I can get in a light package. Apparently, using a Blackmagic Video Assist and recording in braw gives superb image quality, but do I want to put a bulky monitor on the S5 II and switch editing to Davinci Resolve? I am not sure at this stage.

3. There is also some talk that the still image quality of the S5 is better than the S5 II. So even though I'd get more keepers, the keepers themselves may not look quite as good as before.

So do I get a second S5 or perhaps a S1 for second camera and deal with the autofocus issues, or get the S5 II and deal with the lesser image quality? Annoying first world problems.

[helged]

7 minutes ago, Archiver said:

As an aside, significant improvements in the the S5 II autofocus irritate me a bit. Why?

1. I use the S5 for sports photography. It has a reasonable hit rate, but of course it could be better. The S5 II's autofocus seems to solve this problem. Phase detection also seems to make adapted EF mount lenses focus much, much better. As I use a number of EF lenses with my S5, this would also be very helpful, perhaps even saving me from buying the native counterparts to get better AF performance.

2. But, I also use the S5 for video work, and the S5 II's video quality seems to be lesser than the S5/S1/S1H. There is a loss of fine detail in S5 II and the recent Panasonic G9 II, and I want all the image quality I can get in a light package. Apparently, using a Blackmagic Video Assist and recording in braw gives superb image quality, but do I want to put a bulky monitor on the S5 II and switch editing to Davinci Resolve? I am not sure at this stage.

3. There is also some talk that the still image quality of the S5 is better than the S5 II. So even though I'd get more keepers, the keepers themselves may not look quite as good as before.

So do I get a second S5 or perhaps a S1 for second camera and deal with the autofocus issues, or get the S5 II and deal with the lesser image quality? Annoying first world problems.

Interesting. See below for statements from Panasonic. It will be interesting to see what Leica SL3 brings to the table in about two months time (if rumours are to be trusted...).

https://www.43rumors.com/panasonic-manager-explains-why-phase-detection-af-is-coming-now-only/

https://www.diyphotography.net/panasonic-says-the-reason-pdaf-took-so-long-was-to-not-compromise-image-quality/

Edited January 18 by helged

[Stuart Richardson]

That is interesting indeed, and to be honest, one of the things I have feared regarding PDAF on the SL series. I was more concerned with additional banding in images that have to be heavily processed, or at high ISO, but if putting phase detect processors into a sensor decreases the potential image quality, then that is a bit of a bummer from my standpoint. I noticed immediately after I got it how crisp and sharp the sensor was in the Panasonic S1...much better than other 24mp sensors I had seen (and I see a lot as a printer). I had the same feeling with the SL2. The pixel level detail was very crisp but also very natural. I hope they can maintain this quality. For me, AFs with contrast detect is brilliant, and I do not need the speed. That said, I understand for most photographers the added speed and tracking of PDAF is important. However, for me Leica has always been about maximum precision and image quality, not speed. Leica literally invented autofocus and then sold the patents to Minolta because they did not feel it was accurate enough for the R series. Perhaps short sighted, but certainly indicative of their in house philosophy.

[helged]

3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

That is interesting indeed, and to be honest, one of the things I have feared regarding PDAF on the SL series. I was more concerned with additional banding in images that have to be heavily processed, or at high ISO, but if putting phase detect processors into a sensor decreases the potential image quality, then that is a bit of a bummer from my standpoint. I noticed immediately after I got it how crisp and sharp the sensor was in the Panasonic S1...much better than other 24mp sensors I had seen (and I see a lot as a printer). I had the same feeling with the SL2. The pixel level detail was very crisp but also very natural. I hope they can maintain this quality. For me, AFs with contrast detect is brilliant, and I do not need the speed. That said, I understand for most photographers the added speed and tracking of PDAF is important. However, for me Leica has always been about maximum precision and image quality, not speed. Leica literally invented autofocus and then sold the patents to Minolta because they did not feel it was accurate enough for the R series. Perhaps short sighted, but certainly indicative of their in house philosophy.

I fully agree that for anything semi-static, existing AF is fast, accurate and predictable. Excellent. For tracking, not so. That Panasonic (and Leica) has taken their time to develop/refine an AF system without too many compromises, is fine. I doubt Leica will release SL3 with image degradation, but this remains to be seen. I did play a little with S5II some weeks ago. The tracking was substantially improved compared to the current L-mount bodies.

[thatkatmat]

I don't use the s5ii for wildlife yet, but the AF is really great, nice and sticky. Love The new feature they added of punching in to your focus point in AF, really cool and accurate. The tracking for humans and animals is fantastic too. I use mostly continuous tracking AF and it's been bullet proof. I have an a7cR with the newest Ai AF and while it might be easier to understand (for me) the hit rate is about the same. Eyes always in focus. 

[OR120]

On 12/22/2023 at 4:14 AM, SrMi said:

For AF accuracy and speed, the camera needs to read only PDAF points. Sony just launched two models (33MP and 61MP), and nobody reports any difference in AF accuracy.

AFAIK, lower resolution sensors were always better for video. I wish Leica would launch an SL3-S with video and an SL3 without video.

SrMi said: " I wish Leica would launch an SL3-S with video and an SL3 without video."

Exactly!

Edited January 25 by OR120
sp

[LocalHero1953]

And I hope the SL series remains as a set of practical tools for photographers and videographers, and doesn't disappear into a heritage bunker like the M. If it can take video without detriment* to stills capability, then it should do so - getting upset about video you can ignore is like Victorians getting upset about ladies ankles under the skirts.

IMO, of course.

 

* Valid reasons for omitting video might include heat management. Not needing to dissipate video heat could allow the body to be smaller.

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Hallo,

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[SrMi]

8 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

And I hope the SL series remains as a set of practical tools for photographers and videographers, and doesn't disappear into a heritage bunker like the M. If it can take video without detriment* to stills capability, then it should do so - getting upset about video you can ignore is like Victorians getting upset about ladies ankles under the skirts.

IMO, of course.

 

* Valid reasons for omitting video might include heat management. Not needing to dissipate video heat could allow the body to be smaller.

Video functionality is sometimes in the way of a still photographer. 
I do not care whether a camera has video functionality as long as it is not an obstacle to still photography (accidental switching to video, complex menus, added weight for cooling).