Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[jaapv]

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It is one of the basics of the whole science behind colour perception. People should do better by reading up instead of pontificating. A place to start: 

https://a.co/d/c0zLyQu

For those who don't bother to read books:

https://neurolaunch.com/where-is-color-processed-in-the-brain/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/color-perception

https://www.annualreviews.org/content/journals/10.1146/annurev-psych-032720-040512

https://www.britannica.com/science/color/The-psychology-of-colour

etc. etc. 

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[LocalHero1953]

It's a clear frosty morning here, and the sun has risen but is not shining into the garden. I'm sitting in a room lit by visibly warm lights. The grass is in the shade and has a layer of frost, and is bordered by a weathered timber fence. If I was looking at a photographic image in Lightroom I would immediately go to the WB controls to move from blue to yellow and, especially, green to magenta - the colours are just so obviously wrong.

Edited January 3 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

15 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

It's a clear frosty morning here, and the sun has risen but is not shining into the garden. I'm sitting in a room lit by visibly warm lights. The grass is in the shade and has a layer of frost, and is bordered by a timber fence. If I was looking at a photographic image in Lightroom I would immediately go to the WB controls to move from blue to yellow and, especially, green to magenta - the colours are just so obviously wrong.

Lovely - that is metamerism in real life 😀

[Homo Faber]

vor 51 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

It is one of the basics of the whole science behind colour perception. People should do better by reading up instead of pontificating. A place to start: 

https://a.co/d/c0zLyQu

For those who don't bother to read books:

https://neurolaunch.com/where-is-color-processed-in-the-brain/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/psychology/color-perception

https://www.annualreviews.org/content/journals/10.1146/annurev-psych-032720-040512

https://www.britannica.com/science/color/The-psychology-of-colour

etc. etc. 

Thank you for the list of links. Interesting, but unfortunately missing the point. The fact that all sensory perception is subjective does not change the fact that the world is recognisable. And if the world is recognisable, a technical error such as the faulty white balance in the M11 is also recognisable.

Plato would be proud of you, but his subjective idealism (‘I am - therefore the world is’) is long outdated. Time to move on. 

Furthermore, subjective perception and subjective taste are two completely different things: the fact that you and others don't mind the magenta tint or that you and others even like it has nothing to do with the fact that it exists objectively. 

 I would like to leave it at that.

[jaapv]

Assuming it is a technical error.
My position is that it may well be a subjective esthetic choice, explaining Leica’s reluctance to change the situation. That brings us back to individual perception. An analogy is that different films show similar variations yet all had their customer base. 
Where did I say that I liked a magenta tint? I reality I often reduce the amount of magenta in my images or change the hue to match my perception.

My point was and is that all cameras show a deviation from my personal preference (or even some arbitrary “objective “ invention) thus I profile them as a matter of routine and I cannot understand why people demand that this step should be omitted by whatever profile in a sidecar file. Leica cannot know my taste nor the way in which I see colour. 

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb anonymoose:

If the same sensor in a completely different camera does not produce magenta-tinted images, then we have reason to believe it's a Leica-specific issue. If all of their sensors (e.g. Q3, SL3, M11) produce this magenta-tinted image (something I'm finding), then it's possibly something that can be fixed in firmware. Or maybe it's Leica's specific Bayer filter and there's nothing that can be done for existing cameras.

May be, that Leica puts a different Bayer filter on the sensor than Sony or others using that 61MP sensor. But as you can adjust it in postprocessing, also the camera firmware could already handle it differently.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

It is one of the basics of the whole science behind colour perception. People should do better by reading up instead of pontificating. A place to start:
...

Color perception is subjective, but when almost everyone perceives the magenta color cast, it is no longer so subjective. Moreover, it can be measured with calibrated equipment and individual human subjectivity can be taken out of the equation.

And yes – as written elsewhere – it can be fixed afterwards, but the question is how much extra work you are willing to put into such a huge amount of images.

[jaapv]

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If you make an import profile once there is no further extra work at all. 

[Mahesh]

I think with regards to the magenta tint and all the freezing issues, one could conclude M11 is certainly a problem child. Some may refuse to acknowledge and/or accept as they have it already. Who likes their child being criticised by someone? 

I have always waited from M11 to M11-p to M11-d thinking all this will be fixed and I will buy the next iteration. I almost did when I was in Porto. But that's another story which you will find if you look at google reviews for Leica Porto.  

I have given up that dream and moving to Z where I could adapt some M mount glass without too much problem. If the next SL camera is below 750 grams, I might get that. 

[MKHB]

I hope Leica does not keep this aesthetics choice for the M12 and further generations.

 

[Smudgerer]

Sure, with some images I can see that tint, barely. It's rare for me as my preference for images is in B&W but today i am printing a couple of colour shots, printing them large to A1 and I corrected the very slight magenta bias that I could see in one shot, ( but not the other that was taken at roughly the same time and location.....go figure that ), in less than 10 seconds. Quite honestly I can't understand why this thread is as long as it is, every shot needs colour correction whether it's to go to print where you have to allow for different tones and textures of paper or to screens that can vary wildly whether they are supposedly "corrected" or not.

[charlesphoto99]

It's patently ridiculous to suggest there aren't industry standards and that color is just something we all perceive differently. Yes, some, many even, might for genetic reasons or due to being untrained in color science. IMO Leica just got it a wee bit wrong, but being Leica, what goes out of the gate is it (except of course firmware for bugs, but Leica would never admit to getting the color wrong as a bug). Here's hoping they get it right next time, but it is an easy fix in a photo editor. 

Converting jpegs to a tiff is the way to work on a jpeg in an emergency (say from a camera phone) but one is not getting the full meal deal if doing so from an M. I mean, if it works for somebody, fine, but it's not a workflow I would ever suggest if shooting a $12k camera and lens. 

[3D-Kraft.com]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

If you make an import profile once there is no further extra work at all. 

Using a profile in LR or ACR, you can adjust general color casts but not erratic white balance (which also does not occur on every picture).

It is quite strange how vehemently some people defend such weaknesses.

Edited January 3 by 3D-Kraft.com

[anonymoose]

1 hour ago, Smudgerer said:

Sure, with some images I can see that tint, barely. It's rare for me as my preference for images is in B&W but today i am printing a couple of colour shots, printing them large to A1 and I corrected the very slight magenta bias that I could see in one shot, ( but not the other that was taken at roughly the same time and location.....go figure that ), in less than 10 seconds. Quite honestly I can't understand why this thread is as long as it is, every shot needs colour correction whether it's to go to print where you have to allow for different tones and textures of paper or to screens that can vary wildly whether they are supposedly "corrected" or not.

I suspect people that spend nearly $10K USD (for a body alone) expect a minimum level of product quality/output and when a flagship device (M11) has a silly issue (e.g. magenta cast, freezing) said people will discuss it 🤷🏽‍♂️ Doesn't help that the $6500 X1D and $9,000 X2D produce great colors at the same price-point or lower.

If you bought a Ferrari and the interior rattled every time you drove it while your friend's cheaper Lamborghini didn't you might just complain about it on a Ferrari forum 😆

Edited January 3 by anonymoose

[pedaes]

14 minutes ago, anonymoose said:

you might just complain about it on a Ferrari forum 😆

How will that fix the rattle?

[jaapv]

Are there Ferraris that don’t rattle then? 

[hdmesa]

34 minutes ago, pedaes said:

How will that fix the rattle?

The rattle is in their heads obviously. 

[Smudgerer]

44 minutes ago, anonymoose said:

I suspect people that spend nearly $10K USD (for a body alone) expect a minimum level of product quality/output and when a flagship device (M11) has a silly issue (e.g. magenta cast, freezing) said people will discuss it 🤷🏽‍♂️ Doesn't help that the $6500 X1D and $9,000 X2D produce great colors at the same price-point or lower.

If you bought a Ferrari and the interior rattled every time you drove it while your friend's cheaper Lamborghini didn't you might just complain about it on a Ferrari forum 😆

Well with any digital Leica the output has to go through a digital PP process whether that's LrC or C1 or whatever........and all I'm saying is that any small perceived colour shift is dead easy to correct or push to your taste whether the camera costs 10K or 1K and I am willing to bet any digital camera marque will be slightly different from another. For me it's really not a big deal because in post I change stuff anyway whether that's cropping, density, tone or whatever shifts the picture in the direction that pleases me, so as I said it's not a big deal for me anyway...........BUT for those that is is an annoyance I guess I can understand why they rail against Leica on such an issue, and yes perhaps Leica should have, or should address this but as said by others here everyone's "norm" is skewed anyway for a myriad of reasons...................Just ignore it and fix it in post, it's not rocket science.

The Ferrari conundrum? I'm still working towards that, presently on a Dacia Logan MPV SW so for me that rattle issue is a long way off.

[anonymoose]

2 hours ago, pedaes said:

How will that fix the rattle?

You might be surprised to find out that companies do read forums to gauge customer sentiment

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[anonymoose]

1 hour ago, Smudgerer said:

Well with any digital Leica the output has to go through a digital PP process whether that's LrC or C1 or whatever........and all I'm saying is that any small perceived colour shift is dead easy to correct or push to your taste whether the camera costs 10K or 1K and I am willing to bet any digital camera marque will be slightly different from another. For me it's really not a big deal because in post I change stuff anyway whether that's cropping, density, tone or whatever shifts the picture in the direction that pleases me, so as I said it's not a big deal for me anyway...........BUT for those that is is an annoyance I guess I can understand why they rail against Leica on such an issue, and yes perhaps Leica should have, or should address this but as said by others here everyone's "norm" is skewed anyway for a myriad of reasons...................Just ignore it and fix it in post, it's not rocket science.

The Ferrari conundrum? I'm still working towards that, presently on a Dacia Logan MPV SW so for me that rattle issue is a long way off.

To be clear, I'm in the camp of "I edit the problem away" as I have been doing for quite some time on all of my digital cameras. My A7S III (now relegated to glorified webcam duty) had a heavy green tint that drove me nuts. I'm merely chiming in to share why I think there's a 40+ page thread on a topic

[anonymoose]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Are there Ferraris that don’t rattle then? 

I have a few friends with Ferraris (3) and Lamborghinis (2) and none of them has had issues with rattling. If any of their vehicles rattled they'd complain about it online and be at the dealership getting it addressed quickly.