Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[jaapv]

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7 hours ago, CDodkin said:

A lot of those color shifts in film were culturally driven, as you noted. Asian cultures tend to favor blues and greens, and cool lighting. It's no accident that Fuji Film packaging is green and blue, and their films strongly bias to green and blue. Western cultures tend to favor yellows and reds, and warmer lighting. Again it's no accident that Kodak film packaging is yellow and red, and their films strongly bias to yellows and reds.

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Precisely and it proves my point that colour appreciation is at least partly culturally derived. It would be interesting to analyze the sociological composition of the group of M11 complainants 

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[Derbyshire Man]

26 minutes ago, jaapv said:

They are probably totally miserable because kids want to conform to their peer group. 

 

 

The local kids this happened to seemed to cope OK! I once dropped off my daughter in a 1976 VW camper van and she got called a gypsy for several years however! (no personal disrespect to the GRT community)

[Ex Orient Lux]

vor 40 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Precisely and it proves my point that colour appreciation is at least partly culturally derived. It would be interesting to analyze the sociological composition of the group of M11 complainants 

Others here have already pointed this out: It makes no sense to compare the colour appearance of different analogue colour films with the magenta tint of the M11.  The former is the result of different chemical formulas in the production of analogue film and has shaped our viewing habits over decades and thus developed its own aesthetics.  The latter, however, is a technical malfunction that probably occurred when the Sony 60MB sensor was first adapted to the Leica system and which simply looks terrible. 

 The fact that the magenta tint is just a malfunction is also shown by the fact that Leica has obviously worked on eliminating it: On the SL3 with the same sensor, the white balance works much better, as you can clearly see from the far more neutral colour rendition.  So Leica was by no means deliberately trying to create a colour aesthetic with the Magenta Tint, but apparently had initial problems with the implementation of new hardware and the interaction of sensor, Bayer filter and firmware. These problems have obviously been solved now that the new sensor (SL3) has been used for the third time.

And there's another thing that @elmars quite rightly pointed out: It's not at all about different tastes in colours or the socio-cultural backgrounds for the different preferences - That only distracts from the topic. It's more about having as neutral a starting point as possible for image processing that corresponds to your own aesthetic sensibilities. And this is where the white balance of the M11 unfortunately fails due to its unmistakable magenta tint.

[jaapv]

Or the photographer fails in setting that point…

That is another thing about present-day digital photography: people expect the camera to do everything for them and switch off their skills. 

[lct]

Main problem is white balance some people seem unable to set. I guess they expect AI to do it for them 😉

 

[Ex Orient Lux]

vor 57 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Or the photographer fails in setting that point…

That is another thing about present-day digital photography: people expect the camera to do everything for them and switch off their skills. 

Well, of course there are photographers who don't know how to use their equipment properly, just as there are photographers who have too high expectations of their camera. The world is a colourful place.

However, I don't quite understand what this has to do with the fact that the white balance of the M11 is faulty and produces a - more or less strong - magenta tint. Especially as this error is likely to cause even greater difficulties for the poor photographers who need to catch up in terms of camera use...

[lct]

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8 minutes ago, Ex Orient Lux said:

I don't quite understand what this has to do with the fact that the white balance of the M11 is faulty and produces a - more or less strong - magenta tint.

Because it doesn't? My early M11 produces only a slight red oversatuation that is easy to adjust in post if needed. I don't use Adobe raw converters though.

Edited December 27, 2024 by lct

[Ex Orient Lux]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb lct:

Because it doesn't? My early M11 produces only a slight red oversatuation that is easy to adjust in post if needed. I don't use Adobe raw converters though.

Unfortunately it does indeed.

Please read to my post #654, 668 and 683.

To sum it up: 

The fact that the magenta tint is just a malfunction is also shown by the fact that Leica has obviously worked on eliminating it: On the SL3 with the same sensor, the white balance works much better, as you can clearly see from the far more neutral colour rendition.  So Leica was by no means deliberately trying to create a colour aesthetic with the Magenta Tint, but apparently had initial problems with the implementation of new hardware and the interaction of sensor, Bayer filter and firmware. These problems have obviously been solved now that the new sensor (SL3) has been used for the third time.
 

[jaapv]

It is not the same sensor. The filter stack is different including the Bayer filter. It is the same silicon bit and that is monochrome. 

[lct]

2 minutes ago, Ex Orient Lux said:

Unfortunately it does indeed.

I don't know how it does for you but it does certainly not for me. I won't quote my dozens posts on this matter. To sum it up, in the link below, i prefer the M11 profile on the yellow flower and the generic one on the red flower.

 

[jaapv]

I have not yet heard from anybody using the Adobe Adaptive  profile. It may well put an end to this matter. 

[lct]

About robots to the rescue of photographers? 😄
In my digital youth, 20+ years ago, i had not raw files with the Digilux 1 of my avatar so the only solution was the slow tif files the camera used to produce then or an old 'poor man's raw' technique consisting in converting OoC jpeg files to tif and adjust them in post with Photoshop. A good way to learn how to set WB in PP. If oldies like me could do it easily you can do it as well of better folks. Just play with this little tool below if you never tried. No need expensive raw converters for that. There is one in the Apple Preview of my old Mac so i suspect there is one also in modern Macs.

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[Ex Orient Lux]

vor einer Stunde schrieb jaapv:

It is not the same sensor. The filter stack is different including the Bayer filter. It is the same silicon bit and that is monochrome. 

M11, Q3 and the SL3 share the same sensor.

There will be noticeable differences in respective file results JPEG and DNG depending how other technologies have been implemented or not between these three cameras as well as other camera bodies using the same sensor. But it's the same sensor.

Sony Semiconductor Solutions is the only company that has and is producing a 61.17MP Full Frame BSI sensor at the moment and that sensor is in several different camera models from Sony and Leica and a few yet to be announced. The IMX455 sensor is produced in both monochrome and with the RGB color filter.

https://www.sony-semicon.com/en/products/is/camera/index.html

Thus it states on page 82 of the LFI magazine where the SL3 was introduced that it is the same sensor.

Even I know that the pure sensor is not the only variable in the equation, that's why I wrote in #683:

 

Zitat

So Leica was by no means deliberately trying to create a colour aesthetic with the Magenta Tint, but apparently had initial problems with the implementation of new hardware and the interaction of sensor, Bayer filter and firmware. These problems have obviously been solved now that the new sensor (SL3) has been used for the third time.

but the the outcome is obvious: The white balance on the SL3 produces a far more natural color rendition the the M11. Or do you see this different?

Edited December 27, 2024 by Ex Orient Lux

[M11 for me]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Ex Orient Lux:

more or less strong - magenta tint

I am still not sure if there are cameras that produce more and other produce less . . . Mine is fully fine.

But assuming there is too much magenta:

Yesterday I was out with the M11 and the Q3. I took photographs in the late afternoon when the sun was bright but low already (in the middle of Europe). Imagine what: The M11 rendered wonderful colours of the sky and the buildings. Nothing much to do in LRc. The Q3 produced a greenish atmosphere with ugly cyan colour of the sky. And as you can imagine it is very difficult to get the Q3 image right or pleasing whereas the output of the M11 (even straight out of cam) was almost perfect (if interested go to my web page: Aarau Aareauen)

So this is 1:0 in favour of the M11. That means that there are clear advantages of how the initial WB is set in the M11. 

It depends a lot of what sceene we photograph. I do not shoot concrete walls just to prove that there is a magenta cast 😇.

 

[Ex Orient Lux]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb M11 for me:

I am still not sure if there are cameras that produce more and other produce less . . . Mine is fully fine.

But assuming there is too much magenta:

Yesterday I was out with the M11 and the Q3. I took photographs in the late afternoon when the sun was bright but low already (in the middle of Europe). Imagine what: The M11 rendered wonderful colours of the sky and the buildings. Nothing much to do in LRc. The Q3 produced a greenish atmosphere with ugly cyan colour of the sky. And as you can imagine it is very difficult to get the Q3 image right or pleasing whereas the output of the M11 (even straight out of cam) was almost perfect (if interested go to my web page: Aarau Aareauen)

So this is 1:0 in favour of the M11. That means that there are clear advantages of how the initial WB is set in the M11. 

It depends a lot of what sceene we photograph. I do not shoot concrete walls just to prove that there is a magenta cast 😇.

 

I do not shoot concrete walls either. But please go to 3:10 in this video and tell me you do not see any magenta cast:
 

 

Edited December 27, 2024 by Ex Orient Lux

[M11 for me]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb Ex Orient Lux:

I do not shoot concrete walls either. But please go to 3:10 in this video and tell me you do not see any magenta cast:
 

 

I commented about this video above. It's not a typical scene at all. Comes to it that his advice of how to deal with it are not valid either. He made a nice video but that's it then.

[Ex Orient Lux]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb M11 for me:

I commented about this video above. It's not a typical scene at all. Comes to it that his advice of how to deal with it are not valid either. He made a nice video but that's it then.

Please be so kind as to answer my simple question: Do you see a magenta cast in the shown picture?

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Ex Orient Lux said:

M11, Q3 and the SL3 share the same sensor.

There will be noticeable differences in respective file results JPEG and DNG depending how other technologies have been implemented or not between these three cameras as well as other camera bodies using the same sensor. But it's the same sensor.

Sony Semiconductor Solutions is the only company that has and is producing a 61.17MP Full Frame BSI sensor at the moment and that sensor is in several different camera models from Sony and Leica and a few yet to be announced. The IMX455 sensor is produced in both monochrome and with the RGB color filter.

https://www.sony-semicon.com/en/products/is/camera/index.html

Thus it states on page 82 of the LFI magazine where the SL3 was introduced that it is the same sensor.

Even I know that the pure sensor is not the only variable in the equation, that's why I wrote in #683:

 

but the the outcome is obvious: The white balance on the SL3 produces a far more natural color rendition the the M11. Or do you see this different?

Different Bayer filter, different  microlenses, different IR filter. You have a strange definition of “ the same”. 

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Hallo,

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[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Ex Orient Lux said:

M11, Q3 and the SL3 share the same sensor.

There will be noticeable differences in respective file results JPEG and DNG depending how other technologies have been implemented or not between these three cameras as well as other camera bodies using the same sensor. But it's the same sensor.

Sony Semiconductor Solutions is the only company that has and is producing a 61.17MP Full Frame BSI sensor at the moment and that sensor is in several different camera models from Sony and Leica and a few yet to be announced. The IMX455 sensor is produced in both monochrome and with the RGB color filter.

https://www.sony-semicon.com/en/products/is/camera/index.html

Thus it states on page 82 of the LFI magazine where the SL3 was introduced that it is the same sensor.

Even I know that the pure sensor is not the only variable in the equation, that's why I wrote in #683:

 

but the the outcome is obvious: The white balance on the SL3 produces a far more natural color rendition the the M11. Or do you see this different?

What interaction with colour has the basic sensor, which by definition is monochrome? Yes, the platform is the same, but the rest of the sensor is not. It is quite common to build different products on the same platform 

[Ex Orient Lux]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

Different Bayer filter, different  microlenses, different IR filter. You have a strange definition of “ the same”. 

Well, it is not my definition. Just look it up on page 82 of the LFI magazine where the SL3 was introduced. Leica says it is the same sensor. I am confident, that Leica knows what they are talking about.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Ex Orient Lux