Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[Ray Harrison]

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1 hour ago, _tc said:

Back to the tint topic, since I was out today I grabbed said gray card and used the M11's gray card white balance mode and it created nicely neutral results. I didnt actually realize the camera had that, I will admit I usually had set it manually, shot a gray card, and then eye-droppered but TIL.

What I find fascinating is that the locked Daylight mode on the M11 is quite magenta. The card method, not so much. So much so, if I'm honest, that I added a bit of magenta tint back.

As a demonstration, I found an image with something gray in it, well not a good photo so glad to get some use out of it (also TIL what this book is, people leave some interesting stuff laying around). Here's what the camera chose from a gray card, granted not even in identical lighting:

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And here are the values the locked daylight color comes up with in lightroom applied

I guess my main question is... why? lmao

In Capture One, the default on import using what Capture One calls the ProStandard for the M11, with fixed daylight in camera, does a couple of things. One is that it cools down the fixed WB to a variable value less than traditional "daylight" - in this case around 4700, and the second is it biases the tint on the greener side, which I see a bit on my Eizo. The other two images I skewed to magenta +7 from the import value in variant 2 (in C1 scale different than LrC) and more green in variant 3 (-7 from the import). Both exaggerated on purpose. The blues, I feel, are a bit overdone on the straight import, which I'd likely tone down in my edit, and the strongest contribution is from R+B>G,G2 in the raw data. I'd sort of expect that, I guess. I'd not use any of these as is; they are easy to change. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 5 by Ray Harrison

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[CDodkin]

3 hours ago, Cattoo said:

You call this speculation, but that's pretty much what you've been doing, and what everyone else who's commented on this for the last 47 pages has been doing.  

 

 

Other than the 3+ years of research into this issue before the M11 was even released, which led me to a conclusion based on camera systems from multiple manufacturers with the same issue - and a practical solution for folks with the issue, given that neither manufacturer has managed to fix the cameras in question with 'firmware' updates.

And the 6 years of doctorate research in digital color space analysis prior to that - but who's counting...

Let's all go along with the 'Kodachrome' theory off the Interwebs 😭

[CDodkin]

1 hour ago, _tc said:

Back to the tint topic, since I was out today I grabbed said gray card and used the M11's gray card white balance mode and it created nicely neutral results. I didnt actually realize the camera had that, I will admit I usually had set it manually, shot a gray card, and then eye-droppered but TIL.

 

 

You'll get an even more neutral (accurate) WB using a transmission target rather than a reflection target - i.e. an Expodisc vs a 'grey' card. I'm sure many people (like yourself) have never used the custom WB feature in-camera, and many don't know it exists at all.

The key advantage (other than accurate WB) is that you capture the WB settings in the EXIF data of the DNG file at source, which is then always available for years to come when you come back to that file for re-processing. No more guessing, you have the correct WB data with each DNG file.

As you discovered, it takes seconds to do, and solves the issue 100% - an added advantage of the Expodisc is that you can also use it to correctly measure exposure for the incident lighting - avoiding exposure issues with challenging targets such as white wedding dresses or black suits.

All of this manual adjustment of camera settings seems to upset many - but if you're after a correctly exposed shot every time, with optimal WB, then this just becomes part of normal workflow.

Auto everything is convenient - but it's just guessing - the final values for exposure and WB are what ever you believe gets you the intended result in the image in question. 

[Derbyshire Man]

Sadly white balance from a white/grey card or white/grey disc over the lens isn't a solution for the M11D, for some reason best known to themselves, Leica have not given it a user set white balance. So you'd have to take the photo prior and use as a white balance setting via C1/LR I presume.

[CDodkin]

2 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

Sadly white balance from a white/grey card or white/grey disc over the lens isn't a solution for the M11D, for some reason best known to themselves, Leica have not given it a user set white balance. So you'd have to take the photo prior and use as a white balance setting via C1/LR I presume.

That's the only option available with the D - it's a bizarre omission, but the work-around can still get you a solid WB ref. If you shoot the Expodisc at the start of each shoot, you'll aways have that file as WB ref for the set of images, and can use the WB analysis feature in your editor of choice.

[andybarton]

10 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Ektachrome 100? 

Astia 

[jaapv]

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Indeed quite neutral but low saturation. Best for skin tones. 

[3D-Kraft.com]

Am 5.1.2025 um 23:11 schrieb LBJ2:

Personally, I'd love to see someone interview the person(s) at Leica who is/are responsible for designing and implementing Leica camera color profiles.

You mean him?

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[jaapv]

Yellow cast…,

[Smogg]

Today I tested M11 (apo 50) and Q3 43 for the first time on the same scenes. The difference in tint is very noticeable in Lightroom Adobe Standard. Without correcting the white balance in post-processing, you can only shoot pink elephants with M11😝

[Almizilero]

It also depends on the lens. I just did some test shots of 35 8E vs 35 APO with a fixed WB setting. The APO images are way more purplish than the 8E, the latter actually gave some pretty accurate colours. So maybe ... Purple is Leicas new Black?

[Smogg]

7 minutes ago, Almizilero said:

It also depends on the lens. I just did some test shots of 35 8E vs 35 APO with a fixed WB setting. The APO images are way more purplish than the 8E, the latter actually gave some pretty accurate colours. So maybe ... Purple is Leicas new Black?

Interesting observation. Unfortunately I don't have other lenses to check it myself.

[Surge]

9 hours ago, Smogg said:

Today I tested M11 (apo 50) and Q3 43 for the first time on the same scenes. The difference in tint is very noticeable in Lightroom Adobe Standard. Without correcting the white balance in post-processing, you can only shoot pink elephants with M11😝

I’m surprised Leica has not fixed this in the 3 years since the M11 launched! What’s going on?

I just purchased an M11-P, having never believed that there would be a “color issue” with Leica M cameras. I currently own the M240 and M10 and plan to sell both, and was thinking I would keep the M11-P for a long long time…

If this problem can be solved with a custom WB, and it sounds like it does solve it (correct?) than surely this can be solved through a firmware update.

[Stevejack]

59 minutes ago, Surge said:

I’m surprised Leica has not fixed this in the 3 years since the M11 launched! What’s going on?

I just purchased an M11-P, having never believed that there would be a “color issue” with Leica M cameras. I currently own the M240 and M10 and plan to sell both, and was thinking I would keep the M11-P for a long long time…

If this problem can be solved with a custom WB, and it sounds like it does solve it (correct?) than surely this can be solved through a firmware update.

Sometimes just a slide to the left on the tint slider in Lightroom will fix it, but other times (depending on the colours in the scene) I will go to the individual hue adjustment sliders and fix it there with better results.
I would assume Leica fixing the colours at this late stage would amount to admitting they got it wrong in the first place... probably unlikely.

[Surge]

Thorstsen Overgaard talks about this and it echoes what has been said by some here:

Quote

I wouldn't say it is wrong, it is something I would see in both Kodachrome slide film and Fuji Astia slide film when I photographed in Scandinavia in cold weather in the spring: 

 

[Surge]

Having used my M11-P for a few days, I honestly don’t see what the negative fuss is about. Color balance in about 50% of the cases is better than in my M10 SOOC. In the other cases, it’s easily adjusted in post. In camera JPEGs look great, even in challenging lighting conditions (I don’t have high expectations for JPEGs but they look totally usable).

If you look at the color calibration card comparisons that Thorsten did, as I am doing now on my calibrated Apple XDR display, and I have the actual Datacolor card in front of me in a light box with D65 lighting — it’s obvious that the M11 colors are a closer representation of the actual colors on the calibration card. The M10-R Blue is not blue, it’s a purplish-blue. Blue Sky is closest in the M11, the M9 and M10s rendition of Blue Sky is not even close to how it looks on the card. I have never seen a blue sky in the color rendered by the M10-R/P and M9.

Perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised that there is so much negativity when a new body is introduced. We see this every time here on the Leica forums. I would love to correlate the M10 lovers with the M10 haters when it was launched 😅.

Anyway, I am selling my M10 and keeping the M11-P — it’s a Huge upgrade over the M10 and even the M10-R. The resolution (especially with the APO lenses) and dynamic range, battery life, automatic Geo-tagging, and on and on make this a no brainer, in my view.

[By way of background: I am not a professional photographer but I hold the patent, and invented the technology that most accurately measures skin tones in the world. (It is B2B only.) We employ several PhD color scientists and have spent the better part of the last decade researching how digital cameras see color, especially skin tones. So I know a thing or two about color accuracy, you could say.]

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Edited January 18 by Surge
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[LBJ2]

1 hour ago, Surge said:

Having used my M11-P for a few days, I honestly don’t see what the negative fuss is about. Color balance in about 50% of the cases is better than in my M10 SOOC. In the other cases, it’s easily adjusted in post. In camera JPEGs look great, even in challenging lighting conditions (I don’t have high expectations for JPEGs but they look totally usable).

If you look at the color calibration card comparisons that Thorsten did, as I am doing now on my calibrated Apple XDR display, and I have the actual Datacolor card in front of me in a light box with D65 lighting — it’s obvious that the M11 colors are a closer representation of the actual colors on the calibration card. The M10-R Blue is not blue, it’s a purplish-blue. Blue Sky is closest in the M11, the M9 and M10s rendition of Blue Sky is not even close to how it looks on the card I have never seen a blue sky in the color rendered by the M10-R/P and M9.

Perhaps I shouldn’t be surprised that there is so much negativity when a new body is introduced. We see this every time here on the Leica forums. I would love to correlate the M10 lovers with the M10 haters when it was launched 😅.

Anyway, I am selling my M10 and keeping the M11-P — it’s a Huge upgrade over the M10 and even the M10-R. The resolution (especially with the APO lenses) and dynamic range, battery life, automatic Geo-tagging, and on and on make this a no brainer, in my view.

[By way of background: I am not a professional photographer but I hold the patent, and invented the technology that most accurately measures skin tones in the world. (It is B2B only.) We employ several PhD color scientists and have spent the better part of the last decade researching how digital cameras see color, especially skin tones. So I know a thing or two about color accuracy, you could say.]

 

Fasinating. Any association with  https://www.pantone.com/articles/press-releases/pantone-launches-pantone-skintone-validated-worlds-first-validation-program-for-skin-tones?srsltid=AfmBOoqcs1vxTzivewRgmTAkgj2FjZJ2SIxaNWK00YOZaQx79nUaZv6R

Edited January 18 by LBJ2

[lct]

19 minutes ago, Surge said:

Having used my M11-P for a few days, I honestly don’t see what the negative fuss is about. Color balance in about 50% of the cases is better than in my M10 SOOC. In the other cases, it’s easily adjusted in post. In camera JPEGs look great, even in challenging lighting conditions (I don’t have high expectations for JPEGs but they look totally usable) [...]

M11 jpegs are totally usable indeed. A close color-blind friend of mine tried to show it in this thread 😉 Not for people unable to set WB or expecting robots to do it for them though...

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[Surge]

2 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

Fasinating. Any association with  https://www.pantone.com/articles/press-releases/pantone-launches-pantone-skintone-validated-worlds-first-validation-program-for-skin-tones?srsltid=AfmBOoqcs1vxTzivewRgmTAkgj2FjZJ2SIxaNWK00YOZaQx79nUaZv6R

It’s not. Pantone is really just about marketing and selling “branded” colors. It’s an interesting, if bizarre, business model. We actually drove X-Rite/Pantone’s skin color reading devices off the market, because they sucked  .

“Based on thousands of human skin measurements from a diverse range of ethnicities and age groups, the PANTONE SkinTone Guide catalogs 110 discrete and unique skin tone “

The 110 shades are not at all representative of how real skin looks. We have over 35 million actual skin images…

[jaapv]

And skin is a layered structure with semi-transparant layers  of varying thickness that reflect light differently. Epidermis, small veins, fatty tissue, and more. As soon as the blood flow changes the skin tone changes, metamerism between the layers will give different results on a camera than in the human eye-brain processing chain, and so forth. Reducing to a single "skin tone is guaranteed to give false results.