Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[CDodkin]

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12 minutes ago, _tc said:

Um, no.

Let's be better about qualifying how speculative our statements are. Someone might read this and make a decision based on it and that would suck. I grabbed my close focus summilux 50 and set a grey card down (I apologize this is an older Kodak one I appear to have misplaced my good one) and blasted it with a strobe in color accuracy mode. I have the latest firmware on this camera as well. About f4.

Here's AWB and a close focus lux providing "correct" color lmao

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Now let's eyedropper the card. Perfect or not, this is dramatically less magenta

Yep, the 'lens issue' idea is complete BS and yet another red herring

Edited January 5 by CDodkin

[CDodkin]

16 minutes ago, _tc said:

I would have to agree there is an appearance that it's intentional. Leica has adjusted the meter several times in firmware.

I write software for a living I often think people think it's easier to fix certain things than it actually is by far (e.g. freezing) but in terms of adjusting the behavior of AWB, my instinct is that this should be comparatively straightforward given that it's likely not a bug but instead an implementation choice. That assume the AWB is not intrinsically linked to some piece of hardware that makes it harder than I think it should be, or there's some other confounding factor with it.

 

Automatic White Balancing Algorithms:

Automatic White Balancing (AWB) is the technique used in all digital cameras to correct color casts in images caused by different lighting conditions. It aims to make the image appear as if it were captured under standard lighting. The algorithm in the M11 likely uses some/all of the following techniques in order to determine what the WB should be in any given image.

 

1. Gray World:

   • Assumes the average color of a scene is gray.
   • Adjusts the red and blue channels to match the green channel's average intensity.
   • Simple and effective but can be inaccurate in scenes with dominant colors.

2. White Patch:

   • Assumes the brightest pixel in the image is white.
   • Adjusts the red and blue channels to match the maximum intensity of the green channel.
   • Sensitive to noise and outliers.

3. Iterative White Balancing:

   • Identifies white or gray pixels in the image.
   • Iteratively adjusts the red and blue channels based on these pixels.
   • More robust to noise and color casts but can be computationally expensive.

4. Illuminant Voting:

   • Models the image formation process using linear combinations of illuminant and reflectance spectra.
   • Uses a voting scheme to identify the most likely illuminant.
   • More accurate but computationally intensive.

5. Color by Correlation:

   • Precomputes a correlation matrix between image colors and different illuminants.
   • Correlates the image colors with the matrix to determine the most likely illuminant.
   • Provides a measure of uncertainty in the illuminant estimation.

These methods are often combined or used in a hierarchical approach to achieve more accurate and robust white balance. The choice of method depends on factors such as computational complexity, accuracy requirements, and the specific characteristics of the camera and imaging conditions. It's not simple or straightforward to achieve, especially as the external lighting conditions vary. It's not simply a 'standard magenta tint offset' as some folks want to believe.

 

[charlesphoto99]

2 hours ago, don daniel said:

I think this is complete nonsense or pure marketing talk. The M11’s white balance isn’t just magenta-biased in the AWB setting, but also in the sun, shade, and cloudy settings, as well as in all manual settings with a specific Kelvin value. Of all the settings relevant to daylight, the only one free of a magenta bias is the immediate white balance on a neutral surface (e.g., a gray card). This phenomenon is not a deliberate decision by Leica, but rather a mistake they refuse to admit—and never will. That doesn’t mean they won’t fix it. They likely will, but then they’ll dress it up again with marketing talk: specifically, when they introduce a way to preconfigure the white balance to suit your needs, as is possible with other camera brands.

They might fix it. The name of the fix will be M12. 

[Cattoo]

12 minutes ago, CDodkin said:

Exactly the same magenta tint issue beset the original Sony censored 50MP Fujifilm GFX cameras - so they'd have had to be in on the same 'film look' idea - which seems highly unlikely - especially as they're Fujifilm, and wouldn't be trying to replicate a Kodak film look!!!

This kind of speculation just confuses the whole discussion - and is complete nonsense I'm afraid

This isn't speculating.  I'm citing (and provided a link to) a review in which the author claims that Leica advised him that there would be some color bias (reportedly meant to mimic Kodachrome) even before the camera was released to the public.  Three years ago, before any of you were complaining about this color bias, Leica told this reviewer that there would be a color bias.  Maybe he made all this up three years ago, but he he had some incredible predictive powers if he did, because there is indeed--as several people here love to point out--a color bias.  

[MKHB]

Better than Kodachrome Colors in M11 would only be Kodachrome film available again for the M6.

 

I had a hearty laugh at the comment that the solution for this fiasco will only be the M12.

 

[LBJ2]

3 hours ago, Cattoo said:

Or the fact that it’s a function of the AWB indicates that it is indeed a Leica choice.

I read in a couple of reviews three years ago that claimed that Leica told them that they wanted to reproduce a Kodachrome or M9 look specifically and only in AWB. Who knows whether reviewers claims are true or not, but my dealer coincidently told me the same thing when I bought my M11 three years ago. Ok, you might counter that it’s after the fact rationalization, but they said this long before it became a topic of controversy in this and other forums. 

Here language from one of these reviews:

Image quality from the Leica M11 is part of what makes this camera so exciting. In our meeting with Leica, they said that the colors are supposed to mimic Kodachrome. That told me that the Leica M9’s colors are back. And in reality, yes, I can confirm that this is true. However, it’s only valid in the auto white-balance mode. With manual white balance, my preferred method, you won’t get the same look. Though at times and with the right lens, you can get a similar halation look that you would from CineStill film.

He could have been making this up but he was incredibly prescient if so.
Here’s the link: https://www.thephoblographer.com/2022/01/13/three-great-cameras-in-one-leica-m11-review/

So for me personally, I expected that there would be a color bias in AWB because I read and was told there would be and that it was intentional, part of the design. Do I like it? Not in every instance but I accept it since it’s an easy correction. 

In any case, I’d wager that it would take most members of this forum less time to correct this color bias in-camera or in Lightroom than they’ve spent complaining about it. 

M11 mimic Kodachrome?

I don't know much about film or the color characteristics of film. I do however use DXO FilmPack 7 and it has a couple of Kodachrome film profiles. For example, the description of DXO's Kodachrome 64 includes: " The purists always blamed it [Kodachrome 64] for a tendency towards magenta in certain lighting conditions" 😉😉

*I'm one of the first to mention how easy, super simple quick it is to slide out the magenta in M11 files, even before M11 Magenta-gate became forum infamous. So no need to respond with the same. 

However, in my quest to better understand who, what, where, and why, and subsequently who/what is to blame and perhaps address the M11 magenta cast e.g., Leica or Adobe profiles, and the idea M11 might mimic Kodachrome, I found this information from Lumariver Profile Designer User Manual:

"Summary:

Differently designed camera profiles [even when using the same sensor ] is the primary reason colors come out so differently between cameras. Simply put: 90% camera profile, 10% camera hardware.

Many manufacturers see the role of the camera profile to be that of analog film stock — to add a more or less strong “filter effect” subjective look suitable for some specific subject material. This approach is legacy from the analog days." 

https://www.lumariver.com/lrpd-manual/#profile_theory

[charlesphoto99]

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I guess this all beggars the question, why would one want to mimic a film style with a magenta (or otherwise) bias? Why not mimic a neutral looking film style? 😏

[anonymoose]

2 hours ago, _tc said:

Better AWB is definitely on my wish list for the M12.

Shooting an X2D has kind of ruined me in terms of knowing what "good" looks like from an AWB perspective. Is it perfect? Heck no. Does it feel generationally better than other cameras I've gotten to shoot, including the M11? I'd have to conclude so.

This is a big part of why I won't rent or buy an X2D. I'm pretty happy with my A1/Q2/M11 colors even though I can tell they're off and I know renting an X2D for a week will completely ruin that 😅

[LBJ2]

49 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I guess this all beggars the question, why would one want to mimic a film style with a magenta (or otherwise) bias? Why not mimic a neutral looking film style? 😏

My speculative comments above may be connecting some dots where no actual connections exists 😎

To your question, perhaps,  "...to add a more or less strong “filter effect” subjective look suitable for some specific subject material."   I've often read from various sources, most would not be pleased with a truly neutral color(s) look. IMO the magenta cast we might see in some scenarios is probably not intentional rather a result of some other specific intentions ( but not hardware related) 

As far as Kodachrome ( if even partly true that the M11 might mimic , from what I read, Kodachrome was very popular ( maybe even considered a classic look) and has some big names associated e.g., National Geographic, ‎Steve McCurry, Garry Winogrand etc. BUT, there are also a different types of Kodachrome for instance Professional, II, 24, 64 and 200. Kodachrome 64 happens to be the only type described by DXO that was criticized for tendency toward magenta in some lighting situations, but also described as the only Kodachrome specifically intended for the general public made for instamatic and Super 8 cameras. * I read Steve McCurry used Kodachrome 64 for the Afghan Girl shot. 

Edited January 5 by LBJ2

[CDodkin]

2 hours ago, Cattoo said:

This isn't speculating.  I'm citing (and provided a link to) a review in which the author claims that Leica advised him that there would be some color bias (reportedly meant to mimic Kodachrome) even before the camera was released to the public.  Three years ago, before any of you were complaining about this color bias, Leica told this reviewer that there would be a color bias.  Maybe he made all this up three years ago, but he he had some incredible predictive powers if he did, because there is indeed--as several people here love to point out--a color bias.  

Film look color does not equal AWB tint calculation issues - no matter how much you want to associate the two

[Ray Harrison]

The M11 is their first M body to do exposure calculations entirely off the main sensor rather than a separate dedicated metering sensor. Jokes aside, the M12 will probably be better at AWB 😀. No reason that algorithm tweaks can’t happen on the M11, of course. And as noted above, luckily, colors are almost entirely profile-based and (speculating of course), most manufacturers aren’t going to get bespoke silicon or do too much with the CFA. Phase doctored their CFA to build their Trichromatic cameras but even with that, they owned the hardware and software (at the time) so the files looked brilliant in Capture One. But doing the hardware side is very expensive, especially when you have more control these days in software and/or firmware. That’s why (to me) Hassy files look their best in Phocus (to be fair, Adobe is getting better with them too). The “look” and much of the color science is the profile in the raw converter, mostly. Hasselblad owns the hardware and software. Obviously, the in-camera JPEGs are the fault of the manufacturer 🙂.

[CDodkin]

2 hours ago, _tc said:

Better AWB is definitely on my wish list for the M12.

Shooting an X2D has kind of ruined me in terms of knowing what "good" looks like from an AWB perspective. Is it perfect? Heck no. Does it feel generationally better than other cameras I've gotten to shoot, including the M11? I'd have to conclude so.

Hasselblad do go to some extreme lengths to calibrate each camera/sensor in the factory by all accounts

[Cattoo]

1 hour ago, CDodkin said:

Film look color does not equal AWB tint calculation issues - no matter how much you want to associate the two

Calm down.  I'm not associating anything or making a case that M11 AWB looks like film.  I'm merely pointing to article in which the reviewer claimed three years ago before the camera was even released that Leica associated the two, that Leica claimed that AWB would render like Kodachrome.  As it happens, my dealer told me the same thing.  

All I'm saying is that based on the above, I believe that the color bias was intentional. You call this speculation, but that's pretty much what you've been doing, and what everyone else who's commented on this for the last 47 pages has been doing.  

 

 

Edited January 5 by Cattoo

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, _tc said:

If Kodachrome was really that popular it wouldn't have been discontinued so long before E6 film. It got to a point where the process was going to get too expensive to support the demand and Kodak saw the writing on the wall to a certain extent.

Kodachrome is better left in the past, where our memory of it can benefit from the hagiography of not having to actually use it. It looks good in shockingly few hands, and most folks who say they miss it will produce shots that tbh would likely have looked better on Provia or another more forgiving slide film.

KC was discontinued because the environmental problems of the process were insoluble within an economic frame. The film was quite popular. And thank you for your opinion on my results. 

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I guess this all beggars the question, why would one want to mimic a film style with a magenta (or otherwise) bias? Why not mimic a neutral looking film style? 😏

From the top of my head I cannot think of a neutral slide film. 

[Ray Harrison]

4 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

M11 mimic Kodachrome?

I don't know much about film or the color characteristics of film. I do however use DXO FilmPack 7 and it has a couple of Kodachrome film profiles. For example, the description of DXO's Kodachrome 64 includes: " The purists always blamed it [Kodachrome 64] for a tendency towards magenta in certain lighting conditions" 😉😉

*I'm one of the first to mention how easy, super simple quick it is to slide out the magenta in M11 files, even before M11 Magenta-gate became forum infamous. So no need to respond with the same. 

However, in my quest to better understand who, what, where, and why, and subsequently who/what is to blame and perhaps address the M11 magenta cast e.g., Leica or Adobe profiles, and the idea M11 might mimic Kodachrome, I found this information from Lumariver Profile Designer User Manual:

"Summary:

Differently designed camera profiles [even when using the same sensor ] is the primary reason colors come out so differently between cameras. Simply put: 90% camera profile, 10% camera hardware.

Many manufacturers see the role of the camera profile to be that of analog film stock — to add a more or less strong “filter effect” subjective look suitable for some specific subject material. This approach is legacy from the analog days." 

https://www.lumariver.com/lrpd-manual/#profile_theory

I like Lumariver tools a lot and Anders and team are not only knowledgeable with deep expertise in color and profiles, but free with that knowledge too, without being arrogant, which is a definite plus. I also like the developers of basICColor and RawDigger/FastRawViewer. Experts in color and raw processing willing to share the knowledge and who want people to learn. Awesome. And agreed with the sentiment that it’s 90% camera profile, 10% hardware (maybe even 95%, 5% 🙂). 

Edited January 5 by Ray Harrison

[jaapv]

Not that simple. The problem Kodak faced was that environmental regulations effectively shut down their processing facilities. In fact it was probably a major nail in the coffin of the  demise of the photographic part of the company. The reduced cash flow hampered a proper transition to digital. 

[charlesphoto99]

56 minutes ago, jaapv said:

From the top of my head I cannot think of a neutral slide film. 

Ektachrome 100? 

[jaapv]

Cool and tends to blue. 

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[LBJ2]

1 hour ago, Ray Harrison said:

I like Lumariver tools a lot and Anders and team are not only knowledgeable with deep expertise in color and profiles, but free with that knowledge too, without being arrogant, which is a definite plus. I also like the developers of basICColor and RawDigger/FastRawViewer. Experts in color and raw processing willing to share the knowledge and who want people to learn. Awesome. And agreed with the sentiment that it’s 90% camera profile, 10% hardware (maybe even 95%, 5% 🙂). 

Yes! I learned a lot from the Lumariver user manual I referenced earlier. RawDigger is another wealth of lots of freely available information on this topic too. I'm not familiar with basICColor but will check it out. 

Personally, I'd love to see someone interview the person(s) at Leica who is/are responsible for designing and implementing Leica camera color profiles. Would be great to hear a high level walkthrough of the color design process as well as hear about their color design goals for their various digital cameras like the M11, SL2, Q etc. Has there ever been such a Leica article or video on Leica Color design goals before?