Leica M11 -purplish tint ???

[JLV]

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I agree with Pedaes: Do not blow the high lithe or there will be no information in the file (white sky forever...)

[MyLeicaWorld]

Read all the things about the colors but is it me only noticing the colors changed on FW2.1.2 ? More like film ; Kodachrome 25 pro? No purple fringe anymore ..

[M11 for me]

There is no color change in FE version 2.1.2

[hdmesa]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:20 AM, don daniel said:

...in artificial light or candlelight indoors, the white balance of the M11 can also function completely normally. However, as soon as real daylight is added, the tint shifts to magenta...

Infrared light is the variable. Perhaps there were compromises in making the sensor glass UV/IR cut filter of the M11 thinner. It's possible that variances in the sensor UV/IR cut filter may be to blame for the differences in magenta bias from one batch of M11s to the next. If true, they wouldn't be able to fix that with a white balance bias without affecting white balance under artificial lighting or without affecting M11 units with less magenta tint bias. This is probably why Leica will fine-tune an individual M11 unit if sent in, but they won't provide a change via firmware.

[Photoworks]

16 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Infrared light is the variable. Perhaps there were compromises in making the sensor glass UV/IR cut filter of the M11 thinner. It's possible that variances in the sensor UV/IR cut filter may be to blame for the differences in magenta bias from one batch of M11s to the next. If true, they wouldn't be able to fix that with a white balance bias without affecting white balance under artificial lighting or without affecting M11 units with less magenta tint bias. This is probably why Leica will fine-tune an individual M11 unit if sent in, but they won't provide a change via firmware.

if that is true, would that be the case that it is not possible to correct in PP with the WB slider?

The M8 files had IR cast and it can't be fixed so easily. Even adjusting WB the contamination in the black was always there.

In any case, the M11 files produce wonderful results after adjusting.

[hdmesa]

15 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

if that is true, would that be the case that it is not possible to correct in PP with the WB slider?

The M8 files had IR cast and it can't be fixed so easily. Even adjusting WB the contamination in the black was always there.

In any case, the M11 files produce wonderful results after adjusting.

I’m not sure why the M8 files could not be corrected, perhaps it was due to how much or which part of the IR spectrum was involved. The Canon Ra astro camera, which is 4x more sensitive to Ha light, can still take normal photos due to firmware white balance shift. It also has slightly better daytime dynamic range than the regular EOS R due to the extra light.

In any case, I could be completely wrong about IR having an influence. I’m just hypothesizing about the issue.

[Velo-city]

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On 12/26/2023 at 6:35 AM, mosh1 said:

Hey all, I did a decent amount of investigation into this. It turns out that while all M11s I've seen  have a magenta bias in white-balance some of them have more than others. I saw two M11s set to Daylight white balance each render a different level of magenta tint. This was true whether it was in-camera rendered JPG, Capture One, Lightroom, etc. Both cameras had a magenta bias but one camera would consistently render more magenta when shooting the exact same scene with the same settings and set to a static Daylight white balance (I did not use Auto to remove that variability). After some back and forth in emails with Leica, it turns out each camera is individually calibrated with their own "As Shot Neutral" and "White Point" EXIF tags - perhaps done to account for sensor variability but in practice this results in different output. I verified this by looking at the EXIF tags of multiple M11 files and each has a different "As Shot Neutral" and "White Point".  In fact, I used a tool to modify the EXIF data and was able to get all the files from the cameras to render the same (with the same level of magenta tint) by making the tags the same. This suggests that Leica's per-camera calibration appears to have more variability than any actual sensor variability (in my small sample set of DNGs tested).

 

M11 #1  - As Shot Neutral                 : 0.2740899358 1 0.5818181818

M11 #2 - As Shot Neutral                 : 0.2764578834 1 0.5791855204

M11 #3  - As Shot Neutral                 : 0.2816281628 1 0.5953488372
 

The level of tint each camera was set to for a 'Daylight/Cloudy/etc' white balance depended on the above EXIF tag, and each camera had its own individual value for the tag. This explains why some users here may think the magenta bias is less of a problem than others. It's different for each camera. And the difference appears to be more due to Leica's internal calibration than sensor variability (again in my small sample set).

 

I think the solution to this is to have something other camera makers like Fuji have for a while, allow a user defined white balance shift (example from a Fuji camera). This would better allow a starting point for white balance per user taste and per camera variability that can be carried over into JPG and RAW renderers.

 

 

 

 

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It's this magenta thing that I keep coming back to every time I nearly pull the trigger on a used M11.

This is the answer surely.  I have it on my fuji and rarely use it but it's there if I want it.  How hard would it be to add something the firmware on the M11 - answer: trivially easy.  And if you didn't have a loathing for magenta bias you leave it set at default and never touch it.  Otherwise adjust until happy.

There are so many M11 sample images here and elsewhere that clearly have a magenta bias.  Anyone with any background in colour can see it a mile off, and while not everyone 'sees the same', in my experience the differences are marginal and the magenta bias in some of these images is BIG.  I'd say if anything my Fuji has a very, very slight magenta bias on AWB, but I can tolerate it despite being magentabiasphobic.  It's subtle.  Most of the samples I see for the M11 are definitely not subtle.  And you don't need calibrated anything to spot it (although I do), and even if you somehow dont see it, you just need the before and after with a corrected white balance adjustment - the difference should be reasonable small unless its off.

What's strange is this 'it's not there to my eyes' and 'fix it in post, it's not Leicas fault' mentality that reads like a broken record (from just a few users here).  Why would anyone defend it regardless of the workarounds?  Surely everyone wants Leica to strive for perfection on a camera at this level?  

Leica should surely fix the issue, or if it's inconsistently baked into individual camera calibrations such that they cant resolve it in firmware, then they should allow cameras to be sent in to be recalibrated and/or just add a WB offset in firmware. In fact, the Fujji-style WB offset would be win-win for everyone; Leica don't have to admit there was an issue, anyone that can't see it ignores the setting (and of course can carry on telling everyone it was a pointless thing that Leica added and that users are just lazy amateurs for not fixing it themselves in post), and it would probably suddenly get a lot of praise across forums etc, and there would start becoming less images with magenta tints which would no-doubt boost M12 sales.

And yes, most things can be fixed in post, but why should they? And why shouldn't people have SOOC files that aren't magenta?

Meanwhile what I'm curious about at this point in my potential journey into Leica M - has anyone successfully managed to get Leica to re-calibrate their cameras under warranty?  At least that would give some consolation if I were to get one that puts out images similar to some of the examples I've seen.

Edited October 29, 2024 by Velo-city

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, Velo-city said:

It's this magenta thing that I keep coming back to every time I nearly pull the trigger on a used M11.

This is the answer surely.  I have it on my fuji and rarely use it but it's there if I want it.  How hard would it be to add something the firmware on the M11 - answer: trivially easy.  And if you didn't have a loathing for magenta bias you leave it set at default and never touch it.  Otherwise adjust until happy.

There are so many M11 sample images here and elsewhere that clearly have a magenta bias.  Anyone with any background in colour can see it a mile off, and while not everyone 'sees the same', in my experience the differences are marginal and the magenta bias in some of these images is BIG.  I'd say if anything my Fuji has a very, very slight magenta bias on AWB, but I can tolerate it despite being magentabiasphobic.  It's subtle.  Most of the samples I see for the M11 are definitely not subtle.  And you don't need calibrated anything to spot it (although I do), and even if you somehow dont see it, you just need the before and after with a corrected white balance adjustment - the difference should be reasonable small unless its off.

What's strange is this 'it's not there to my eyes' and 'fix it in post, it's not Leicas fault' mentality that reads like a broken record (from just a few users here).  Why would anyone defend it regardless of the workarounds?  Surely everyone wants Leica to strive for perfection on a camera at this level?  

Leica should surely fix the issue, or if it's inconsistently baked into individual camera calibrations such that they cant resolve it in firmware, then they should allow cameras to be sent in to be recalibrated and/or just add a WB offset in firmware. In fact, the Fujji-style WB offset would be win-win for everyone; Leica don't have to admit there was an issue, anyone that can't see it ignores the setting (and of course can carry on telling everyone it was a pointless thing that Leica added and that users are just lazy amateurs for not fixing it themselves in post), and it would probably suddenly get a lot of praise across forums etc, and there would start becoming less images with magenta tints which would no-doubt boost M12 sales.

And yes, most things can be fixed in post, but why should they? And why shouldn't people have SOOC files that aren't magenta?

Meanwhile what I'm curious about at this point in my potential journey into Leica M - has anyone successfully managed to get Leica to re-calibrate their cameras under warranty?  At least that would give some consolation if I were to get one that puts out images similar to some of the examples I've seen.

Your hyper focus on this topic still reads to me as trolling.

In any case, reports here suggest more recent M11, M11-P, and M11-D units don't have a magenta bias. Did Leica get better at the factory calibration? No way to know. You also can't let Adobe off the hook here since the M11 files have always appeared less magenta in Capture One.

[elmars]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Velo-city:

It's this magenta thing that I keep coming back to every time I nearly pull the trigger on a used M11.

This is the answer surely.  I have it on my fuji and rarely use it but it's there if I want it.  How hard would it be to add something the firmware on the M11 - answer: trivially easy.  And if you didn't have a loathing for magenta bias you leave it set at default and never touch it.  Otherwise adjust until happy.

There are so many M11 sample images here and elsewhere that clearly have a magenta bias.  Anyone with any background in colour can see it a mile off, and while not everyone 'sees the same', in my experience the differences are marginal and the magenta bias in some of these images is BIG.  I'd say if anything my Fuji has a very, very slight magenta bias on AWB, but I can tolerate it despite being magentabiasphobic.  It's subtle.  Most of the samples I see for the M11 are definitely not subtle.  And you don't need calibrated anything to spot it (although I do), and even if you somehow dont see it, you just need the before and after with a corrected white balance adjustment - the difference should be reasonable small unless its off.

What's strange is this 'it's not there to my eyes' and 'fix it in post, it's not Leicas fault' mentality that reads like a broken record (from just a few users here).  Why would anyone defend it regardless of the workarounds?  Surely everyone wants Leica to strive for perfection on a camera at this level?  

Leica should surely fix the issue, or if it's inconsistently baked into individual camera calibrations such that they cant resolve it in firmware, then they should allow cameras to be sent in to be recalibrated and/or just add a WB offset in firmware. In fact, the Fujji-style WB offset would be win-win for everyone; Leica don't have to admit there was an issue, anyone that can't see it ignores the setting (and of course can carry on telling everyone it was a pointless thing that Leica added and that users are just lazy amateurs for not fixing it themselves in post), and it would probably suddenly get a lot of praise across forums etc, and there would start becoming less images with magenta tints which would no-doubt boost M12 sales.

And yes, most things can be fixed in post, but why should they? And why shouldn't people have SOOC files that aren't magenta?

Meanwhile what I'm curious about at this point in my potential journey into Leica M - has anyone successfully managed to get Leica to re-calibrate their cameras under warranty?  At least that would give some consolation if I were to get one that puts out images similar to some of the examples I've seen.

Please write directly to Leica.

[jaapv]

The point is that it is just a matter of lack of basic postprocessing skill Every camera has a bias which one may like or not. If not, just adjust your raw processing. I had to do so on most digital cameras I ever owned. 
On the M11 the bias is so slight that it can even be adjusted in jpg processing.

There is no way that transmitted light ( a monitor screen) can exactly match reflected light (The original scene or the final print.) 

Read “Real World Color Management”by Bruca Fraser et al. The processing bit is dated but the theory is of all time. 

[username]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

The point is that it is just a matter of lack of basic postprocessing skill Every camera has a bias which one may like or not. If not, just adjust your raw processing.

I respectfully disagree.
Yes, every camera has bias, there is no perfect neutral, but apparently the calibration with a lot of M11's is off by quite a bit. I mean, really.

To counter this by saying "you just lack basic postprocessing skill" is a bit silly, no offense -
what people really want is that their 9K camera gets AWB right without having to fiddle with the files in post, and I think they do have a point 💁

Besides, thinking about shooting any event with a camera like that where there's mixed light / changing weather / inside & outside scenes makes my head hurt.
Shot stuff like that for over a decade with Nikon gear, set on auto-WB basically the whole time, hardly ever had to correct color temperature in post.
Just saying.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, username said:

I respectfully disagree.
Yes, every camera has bias, there is no perfect neutral, but apparently the calibration with a lot of M11's is off by quite a bit. I mean, really.

To counter this by saying "you just lack basic postprocessing skill" is a bit silly, no offense -
what people really want is that their 9K camera gets AWB right without having to fiddle with the files in post, and I think they do have a point 💁

Besides, thinking about shooting any event with a camera like that where there's mixed light / changing weather / inside & outside scenes makes my head hurt.
Shot stuff like that for over a decade with Nikon gear, set on auto-WB basically the whole time, hardly ever had to correct color temperature in post.
Just saying.

So calibrate it by the import profile when you are setting the camera up. Miracle: it gets the AWB right straight out of the camera just like your Nikon does to your taste. No specific fiddling in post required.  I find I need to do that with virtually any camera as I tend to disagree with the firmware’s technician’s taste in many cases. 
To get all het up about the price determining the colour balance is just, well, let’s call it beside the the point and calling for “ guarantee recalibration “ a  second well…

Digital colour appreciation is subjective. Period. 
Should Leica decide to change horses in midstream, I can already hear the screams of indignation by forum users who like this particular colour rendering. 

[username]

22 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Digital colour appreciation is subjective. Period.

There just is a strong magenta cast to a lot of photos taken with M11's. Period.
That's not a subjective perception, it's a consensus by now.

 

[LocalHero1953]

9 minutes ago, username said:

There just is a strong magenta cast to a lot of photos taken with M11's. Period.
That's not a subjective perception, it's a consensus by now.

 

Indeed - if you repeat it enough it becomes a consensus.

But in the real world there is no way that anyone can draw a firm conclusion about this matter simply from posts on an internet forum. 

But of course, putting "Period" at the end of a sentence uncontestably places it beyond doubt.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, username said:

There just is a strong magenta cast to a lot of photos taken with M11's. Period.
That's not a subjective perception, it's a consensus by now.

 

There is a magenta cast in the RAW CONVERSION of the M 11 files. That is something quite different.

[username]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

But of course, putting "Period" at the end of a sentence uncontestably places it beyond doubt.

Yeah - it was meant to be a tongue-in-cheek reply to jaapv's statement  Digital colour appreciation is subjective. Period.  🙂

 

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Indeed - if you repeat it enough it becomes a consensus.

But in the real world there is no way that anyone can draw a firm conclusion about this matter simply from posts on an internet forum. 

..so what's your point? That there is no problem? That the whole M11's magenta cast is a myth?

I'm well aware that things do get overblown on internet forums sometimes - but this issue has been quite persistent, with feedback from users  from all over the world since early 2020 - I think by now it's safe to say that there indeed is an issue.
I don't think it's just some rare cases that have gotten overblown, don't think it's a case of "fake news" that got repeated enough they became a consensus - there have been lots of people having issues in the past 2,5 years, including seasoned photographers who do know what they're doing.

If your experience with the camera is a different one - cool!
For me the white balance issues (and also the lockup nonsense) were major reasons not to buy a M11 - I'll happily wait for the M12, and if the colors are still off then I'll call it a day and move back to Hasselblad.

 

 

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, username said:

..so what's your point? That there is no problem? That the whole M11's magenta cast is a myth?

 

Apologies for the 'period' comment - I hadn't read Jaap's post and of course it applies to his as well!

I don't doubt that some people get a magenta cast, and it irritates them, so no, it's not a myth. As with any fault, those who don't experience it don't comment on it - they just take photographs. Thus determining the extent of the problem, whether it's some cameras and not others, whether it's subjective or real, is pretty well impossible to tell from forum posts. And then there are those for whom it is a major issue because they want their images to look right SOOC, and those for whom it is a minor or negligible issue, because they always edit the colour.

I don't have a view either way - I don't have a M11. I have seen similar kerfuffles about other cameras and lenses, some of which I have owned myself. But I'm always interested in how human nature understands truth, facts, evidence, statistics etc.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, username said:

For me the white balance issues (and also the lockup nonsense) were major reasons not to buy a M11 - I'll happily wait for the M12, and if the colors are still off then I'll call it a day and move back to Hasselblad.

 

 

I just happened to note that 10 out of your 13 posts since joining have been in the M11 forum, yet you say you don't have one, and appear to have no interest in getting one.

That seems a bit strange but you are, of course, free to post where you want.

 

[pedaes]

4 hours ago, username said:

but this issue has been quite persistent,

Can you show 'persistent' posts in last month, please? Time to move on.

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Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[username]

1 hour ago, Corius said:

I just happened to note that 10 out of your 13 posts since joining have been in the M11 forum

Yeah, that's because I'm interested in the M11.
I want to learn more about it, and understand whether the issues with the camera that have been going on since it's release 2,5 years ago have been resolved by now.
 

1 hour ago, Corius said:

That seems a bit strange but you are, of course, free to post where you want.

I'm finding your post a bit strange, too be honest.

 

31 minutes ago, pedaes said:

Can you show 'persistent' posts in last month, please? Time to move on.

Hi!
If you would like to move on, by all means feel free and go ahead - nobody is forcing you to read (or comment in) threads regarding this issue 👍

 

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

There is a magenta cast in the RAW CONVERSION of the M 11 files.

Oh, ok! I must have misunderstood this part - I was under the impression the magenta cast is also present IN THE SOOC JPG FILES ?
..due to the way the sensors are calibrated by Leica at the factory?