Is the Nokton 50, F1,0 a downgrade from the Noctilux F0,95?

[ChrisGA]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Is the Voigtländer Nokton 50, F1,0 a downgrade from the Noctilux F0,95?

I recognised the Voigtländer 50mm F1.0 aspherical for the first time, some days before.

I own the Noctilux F0,95 since one year, bought it used with some marks but technical perfect. 
 

The Voigtländer is sharper, lighter and smaller. If I change, I could get about 4500 bucks of money left. 
 

Are there any opinions to change?

Is there anybody who owned/used both lenses side by side? What were your conclusions? Rendering, Colour?

[fil-m]

(I had the Noctilux .95 and "downgraded" to the Noctilux 1.0 v3 while also making some money in the process. The Noctilux 1.0 is smaller, less sharp, less contrasty, suffers from less CA & purple fringing. Quite different rendering than the .95) 

The Noctilux .95 set the standard in 2008 and was quite unique at maintaining sharpness at such a wide aperture, I see it as a "faster Summilux 50 Asph", making images with a very specific signature in which the subject in focus stands out (compared to, say, the previous Noctilux 1.2 & 1.0). Since then, many competitors tried to beat the Noctilux 50 .95 and I think that the Nokton 1.0 managed to do that after more than 15 years. Indeed, from what I've seen with the Nokton and RAW files that I've exchanged with a friend of mine, the Nokton is even sharper than the Noctilux .95 (!!), has slightly stronger contrast, similar levels of CA & fringing. It is also as you said more compact and way cheaper. The Nokton 1.0 is kind of playing in the .95 territory with a rendering that is not too different, being mostly sharper for a stronger OOF transition: it gives even more of the ".95 formula" with more sharpness in a compact package. 

Now obviously does it mean that the Nokton is a better lens, can we talk of a downgrade? nobody can answer that since every lens has, at the end, a unique signature and I have seen so many times people saying that a lens is better because it is sharper and the opposite of people looking for lenses with less sharpness and contrast for "dreamy" images. Just to say that each of the Noctilux .95 and Nokton has a unique signature even if they are not that different.

So If you want more sharpness, the Nokton will give you that, if you want more compact and pay the Nokton does also that. I consider the Nokton to be a very interesting and challenging proposition compared to the .95 and it could be one of those rare non-Leica lenses that I would have chosen, had I wanted this kind of "wide aperture yet quite sharp" 50mm lens! hope I could partially answer you for such a subjective question       

Edited November 12, 2023 by fil-m

[jankap]

In the Fred Miranda forum under "Leica & Alternative Gear", the Nokton is reviewed.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/0?keyword=Nokton#15851106

Edited November 12, 2023 by jankap

[RexGig0]

23 minutes ago, jankap said:

In the Fred Miranda forum under "Leica & Alternative Gear", the Nokton is reviewed.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/0?keyword=Nokton#15851106

The images and comments posted in this discussion were very valuable, as I pondered whether to buy a pre-owned Noctilux f/0.95, or a Cosina Voigtlander 50mm f/1.0 Aspherical VM. I live far from any camera stores where I could hope to test-shoot a Noctilux 0.95 or Nokton f/1.0, or even see either of these lenses. This review at the Fred Miranda forum is, notably, open to any member who wishes to post relevant images and comments.

[M Street Photographer]

Mitakon, TT Artisan, Voigtländer, etc. There are some bright alternatives, not only technically, but also in terms of price.

[nameBrandon]

You'll find some of my comments towards the end of that FM review thread, but I'm perfectly happy with my 50 Summicron v5. I needed a faster lens for low-light situations, or just those times when I wanted much shallower DoF. I wasn't about to pay Noctilux prices for that small percentage of time when I shoot like that, so I bought both the Nokton 1.1 and the Nokton 1.0 ASPH.

I ended up keeping the Nokton 1.1. To me, the lower contrast and slightly more uncorrected aberrations seemed to match up better with the images from my Summicron. I've only rented the Noctilux 0.95, so don't have a ton of experience with it, but IMO, the Nokton 1.0 ASPH is much more aligned to the modern renderings of the 0.95 and Summilux 50 ASPH. It is sharp wide-open and is contrasty right from the start.

Depending on what you're looking for, you could even save more money with the Nokton 1.1 (I paid ~$550 USD). Another value option is the Nokton 50 1.2 which is very close to the Summilux 50 ASPH as far as rendering (very similar contrast and sharpness) and is closer to the $650 USD mark..

So I guess in summary.. if you're looking for the 50mm Leica equivalents < f/1.4..

Nokton 50 1.1  = Noctilux 1.0

Nokton 50 1.0 = Noctilux 0.95

Nokton 50 1.2 = Summilux 50 1.4

For reference, here are some images shot on the M11 from my testing with the Noctilux 1.0, wide open (which I 6-bit coded as 0.95)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by nameBrandon

[BastianK]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

https://phillipreeve.net/blog/comparison-super-fast-50mm-m-mount-lenses/

Many side by side comparisons. 

More of an upgrade than a downgrade, not only for your wallet. 

[RexGig0]

In Phillip Reeve’s excellently-done test images, I am not seeing anything that makes me wish that I had opted to buy a Noctilux f/0.95, rather than the Nokton f/1.0. In one of the comparative bokeh image sets, shot in the forest, I saw only one with background blur better-rendered by the Noctilux f/0.95, as my eyes see it. In all of the other bokeh images, I either preferred the Nokton image, or, it was too close to choose a clear favorite. In the images with the human subject, she seemed to look better, to my eyes, in the Nokton f/1.0 images.

I have not yet seen a Noctilux, in real life, but simple math shows that the Nokton f/1.0 blocks less of the viewfinder, compared to the Noctilux f/0.95. A lens of a shorter length will bump into fewer things. A lens of lighter weight will apply less downward leverage, at the times I am using only my right hand to hold the camera. (I would rather use my upraised left hand to support the camera/lens, but, sometimes, the left hand has another task that is more pressing, and I have enough arthritis in my right thumb, hand, and wrist, for this to matter.)

While this is subjective, I find the Nokton f/1.0 to be more visually appealing than the Noctilux f/0.95. Visual appeal can have a positive effect on creativity, all else being equal. 🙂 

Never having handled a Noctilux f/0.95, I cannot be certain of its handling qualities, but I continue to reasonably believe that the Noctilux f/0.95 would not be pleasurable to use, while walking about, with an M camera, in my personal use case. Any lens that weighs ~700 grams is something that I would rather use on a pro DSLR camera.

This is personal pondering, not advice for any other person. If a Noctilux, any version, should ever happen to appear among the pre-owned inventory, of a local camera store, I would like to handle it, and try some test shots. 

 

 

 

[don daniel]

The clear winner in this competition seems to be the Nokton 1.2. It shows less vignetting and a smoother bokeh to the edges of the frame than its bigger sibling, the Nokton 1.0. As far as I am concerned, I am perfectly happy with the Leica Summilux 50mm asph. 

[RexGig0]

22 hours ago, don daniel said:

The clear winner in this competition seems to be the Nokton 1.2. It shows less vignetting and a smoother bokeh to the edges of the frame than its bigger sibling, the Nokton 1.0. As far as I am concerned, I am perfectly happy with the Leica Summilux 50mm asph. 

I remain “perfectly happy” with my Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, too. Other 50mm lenses seem to keep accumulating; an addiction, I reckon, each acquired to fill a perceived niche, but, my first M lens was my Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, with nothing having yet threatened its status as the favorite. 

[jakontil]

In my opinion, having the apo cron, and noctiluxes, summilux asph is a cheat code lens

[Erik van Straten]

The Nokton 50mm f1.1 is at full aperture sharper than them all and has an even illumination (no black corners).

gelatin silver print (nokton 50mm f1.1) leica m2

Amsterdam, 2024

Edited August 3, 2024 by Erik van Straten

[Erik van Straten]

gelatin silver print (nokton 50mm f1.1) leica mp

Utrecht, 2015

 

[3D-Kraft.com]

If you are interested in using a 50mm lens at f/1.0, you are in a world of imperfections and you are striving for some kind of special look. Technically, the Nokton 50/1.0 ASPH looks better in many regards compared to the - meanwhile aged - Noctilux 50/0.95 ASPH, which again technically looks better in many regards compared to the even older Noctilux 50/1.0.

In my opinion, in this field it doesn't matter at all which lens has the higher center resolution, the better sharpness in the corners or less vignetting. For me, the decisive factor is which one has the most beautiful characteristics in the out-of-focus rendering at typical subject distances.

Over the years I used all three - and also the SLR Magic Hyperprime CINE T0.95 (f/0.92), who was the first candidate to challenge the Noctilux's throne. As a result, I keep the Hyperprime CINE (but more as a collector's item due to it's size and weight) and the Noctilux 50/1.0 (most interesting character). With the Nokton 50/1.0 I am not sure. The Nokton and both Noctiluxes suffer from a strong inverse field curvature which reduces the desired background blur signficantly towards the edges.

Examples (subject focused at about 1.8m distance):

Leica Noctilux 50/1.0 v4 at f/1.0 on M9 (the Noctilux 50/0.95 ASPH will show a smoother / less busy background here but with similar field curvature):

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Voigtländer Nokton 50/1.0 at f/1.0 on M9:

 

SLR Magic HyprePrime CINE T0.95 (f/0.92) at T0.95 on M9:

 

Center crops from same setup but shot with a Sony A1 (50 MPix) in order to get a more precise focussing (on the red Leica label):

Center crop of Leica Noctilux 50/1.0 at f/1.0 shot on Sony A1:

 

Center crop of Voigtlander Nokton 50/1.0 ASPH shot on Sony A1:

 

Center crop of SLR Magic HyperPrime CINE T0.95 at T0.95 shot on Sony A1:

 

So you see, that even with the 50 MP sensor of the Sony A1, there is not really an issue with the center sharpness of the good old Noctilux 50/1.0. It has a little bit more glow but - if required - that can easily be made "crisper", if you like.

Comparisons with f/1.2 (like the Nokton 50/1.2 ASPH) or even f/1.4 lenses do not make much sense, because there seems to be a reason, why you spend so much more money for that half or even one full stop wider opening.

Edited November 10, 2024 by 3D-Kraft.com

[Ray Vonn]

9 minutes ago, 3D-Kraft.com said:

If you are interested in using a 50mm lens at f/1.0, you are in a world of imperfections and you are striving for some kind of special look. Technically, the Nokton 50/1.0 ASPH looks better in many regards compared to the - meanwhile aged - Noctilux 50/0.95 ASPH, which again technically looks better in many regards compared to the even older Noctilux 50/1.0.

In my opinion, in this field it doesn't matter at all which lens has the higher center resolution, the better sharpness in the corners or less vignetting. For me, the decisive factor is which one has the most beautiful characteristics in the out-of-focus rendering at typical subject distances.

Over the years I used all three - and also the SLR Magic Hyperprime CINE T0.95 (f/0.92), who was the first candidate to challenge the Noctilux's throne. As a result, I keep the Hyperprime CINE (but more as a collector's item due to it's size and weight) and the Noctilux 50/1.0 (most interesting character). With the Nokton 50/1.0 I am not sure. The Nokton and both Noctiluxes suffer from a strong inverse field curvature which reduces the desired background blur signficantly towards the edges.

Examples (subject focused at about 1.8m distance):

Leica Noctilux 50/1.0 v4 at f/1.0 on M9 (the Noctilux 50/0.95 ASPH will show a smoother / less busy background here but with similar field curvature):

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Voigtländer Nokton 50/1.0 at f/1.0 on M9:

 

SLR Magic HyprePrime CINE T0.95 (f/0.92) at T0.95 on M9:

 

Center crops from same setup but shot with a Sony A1 (50 MPix) in order to get a more precised focussing (on the red Leica label):

Center crop of Leica Noctilux 50/1.0 at f/1.0 shot on Sony A1:

 

Center crop of Voigtlander Nokton 50/1.0 ASPH shot on Sony A1:

 

Center crop of SLR Magic HyperPrime CINE T0.95 at T0.95 shot on Sony A1:

 

So you see, that even with the 50 MP sensor of the Sony A1, there is not really an issue with the center sharpness of the good old Noctilux 50/1.0. It has a little bit more glow but - if required - that can easily be made "crisper", if you like.

Comparisons with f/1.2 (like the Nokton 50/1.2 ASPH) or even f/1.4 lenses do not make much sense, because there seems to be a reason, why you spend so much more money for that half or even one full stop wider opening.

Really appreciative of that practical demonstration which is extremely useful, thanks.

[Ralf]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb Ray Vonn:

Really appreciative of that practical demonstration which is extremely useful, thanks.

+1

[RexGig0]

The more I look at images captured (by others) with their Noctilux 50mm f/0.95 lenses, the more I see the similarity with images captured with the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, which makes sense, as both of these are Peter Karbe-era lenses. As indicated in my earlier post, in this discussion, my most-favored Leica M lens is the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, which established my concept of what a Leica lens “should” render, so, I will have some bias in favor of the Noctilux f/0.95, if all else is equal, and the settings, light, and framing are such that allow the “signature/character” to manifest itself. On the other hand, I do not confine myself to using only Peter Karbe-design-era lenses. An example is my Thambar-M 90mm f/2.2 lens, which remains the most expensive M-mount lens I have purchased, even though I bought it pre-owned.

The Nokton f/1.0 has its own rendering, and its own exterior design aesthetic, such that I do not see it as a “downgrade” from the Noctilux-M f/0.95, but, neither is it an “upgrade,” as my eyes see it. Assuming that each lens has “its place,” I believe that I made the better choice, for the totality of my circumstances, in the year 2022, the final year that I could realistically acquire such an expensive lens.

The only way to test my hypothesis would be to rent or borrow a Noctilux f/0.95, for a comparative shooting test. For the sake of my present retirement-era budget, it would be best that I “just not go there,” unless a 21st-Century equivalent of a MoMA’s John Swarkowski were to “discover” my work, and guide/promote me. 😉 (I should not kid myself; I am no Winogrand, Arbus, etc…)

[RexGig0]

8 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Well, the Nokton 50 is definitely an upgrade in measurable components - such as size/weight/form factor, sharpness and CA - over the aging Noctilux 50/0.95. Image character and overall subjective render feel is another thing and every eyes see that differently.
Having owned both Noctiluxes (1.0 and 0.95) plus the Nokton 50/1.0 I now only own the latter (coded as Noctilux 😄) and intend not to part with it.

Thanks for the “support.” 🙂 By opting to buy my Nokton f/1.0, rather than any of the Noctilux choices, I was able to acquire a pre-owned Elmar-M 24mm ASPH, and a pre-owned APO Summicron-M 75mm ASPH, plus, a new Voigtlander Nokton 21mm f/1.4 Aspherical, which I ordered at the same time as the new Nokton 50 f/1.0, from Camera Quest, the USA official distributor. I am still trying to decide how I feel about the 75mm focal length, but otherwise, believe that I made the right decision.