LUMIX 50mm F1.8 - Bokeh!?

[DirkZ]

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Does anybody know how the bokeh of the LUMIX 50mm F1.8 is? I like lightbubbles with round form instead of cateye. Or does anybody know a good lens for that (compact and not too heavy).

This image has been taken with S1R and Voigtländer 50mm F2.0 APO-Lanthar with F2.0 wide open. I am pleased with this lens except the light bubble bokeh drifting to cateye form.

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x^

 

Same here on the left side of the image....

Edited November 3, 2023 by DirkZ

[jdlaing]

The roundness of the lights, in this case, depended on which direction the lights were aimed. You’ll notice that some are round and some are not. 

[DirkZ]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb jdlaing:

The roundness of the lights, in this case, depended on which direction the lights were aimed. You’ll notice that some are round and some are not. 

Ah ok, I didn't think about this. You're right.

[david strachan]

Round bokeh in the middle of the lens, going to "cat's eyes" as the bokeh balls toward the lens edge.

...

[jdlaing]

5 hours ago, DirkZ said:

Ah ok, I didn't think about this. You're right.

Ask me how I learned that.

[Mikko Kankainen]

Many say it's good, creamy etc, I find it in many situations almost ugly. It's the only weakness this lens has imho. I bought Pana 50mm 1.4 as addition because of this. I don't care about the shape of bokeh lights, just the transition and the overall "peace" in the background.

Sample included, small crop to show bokeh in situation I find this business in clearly shown. Raw image, screenshot from Lightroom.

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Edited November 4, 2023 by Mikko Kankainen

[DirkZ]

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb Mikko Kankainen:

Many say it's good, creamy etc, I find it in many situations almost ugly.

The image you attached here is indeed showing a busy bokeh, yes, honestly ugly. I'll stay with the Voigtländer. It's a nice lens, not weather sealed, no AF, but overall good image quality and very good built.

The Pana 50 1.4 is for sure another level of quality. I can imagine, that it is one of the best 50mm lenses.

[Babylonia]

Interesting subject.

Cats eye shape light bubbles are related by used aperture.
(The more wide open, the more cats eye shape to picture borders and corners).

Shape of the aperture:  Round - Pentagon - Hexagon - 7.. 9.. 11.. 12.. blades

E.g. the Voigtländer 50 mm Apo-Lanthar
The shape of the aperture vary by the used value. (F 2 and F 2.8 are fully round).

Fancy DIY   “5-Minute Heart-Shaped Bokeh Photography”

Optical design of the lens.  So using one or the other lens there can be a difference.

Some old basic technical articles (but still very useful) can be found at web.archive.org (“Toothwalker.org” by Paul van Walree).

Related to   Cat’s eye effect
Related to   Bokeh

Having nice shaped light bubbles, doesn’t mean other optical characteristics are nice to.
So it can be a real challenge to find a lens to your likings.

Shape of Light Lens Lab 50mm 2.0 Speed Panchro II

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Lens test Light Lens Lab 50mm 2.0 Speed Panchro II by  < phillipreeve.net >

If not picky by the most high resolution etc. and maybe looking to more artistic rendering.
New versus older lenses.  The same resource by  phillipreeve.net  do give  < many examples / tests >

As it comes to soft or harsh bokeh under wood / bush area conditions.
Picture example:   Panasonic S1R     -     Sigma 50mm F1.4 DG DN | Art     1/500 - F2 - ISO 640

Shadow brightened with a fold-out reflection screen - silver (held up by a friend).  Catching sunlight from the back.
(Already cropped for some part).     -     Model:  Skating hall employee / bartender.

 

Crop.

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Babylonia

[DirkZ]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb Babylonia:

The more wide open, the more cats eye shape to picture borders and corners)

(F 2 and F 2.8 are fully round).

Are these two statemens not contrary to each other?

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, DirkZ said:

Are these two statemens not contrary to each other?

No because the front element effectively becomes the aperture when wide-open. Incidentally, that's why lenses vignette wide-open.

Stop-down a bit and the aperture masks the edges of the front element.

[Babylonia]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb DirkZ:

Are these two statemens not contrary to each other?

I have written about various aspects. Each part briefly “highlighted”.  What it basically produces as an effect “per aspect”.
Of course, all these things together at the end produce a "total outcome".
However, continue to distinguish between what each function does on its own.

        Cats eye shape light bubbles are related by used aperture.
        (The more wide open, the more cats eye shape to picture borders and corners).

In case apertures are set to smaller openings ---> F4 - F5.6 - F8... ,
there is no cat’s eye effect, as there is no "mechanical" vignetting by the barrel / or inner tubes of a lens.

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        Shape of the aperture: Round - Pentagon - Hexagon - 7.. 9.. 11.. 12.. blades

- A triangular aperture produces a triangular light bubble effect.

 

(Resource:  https://theasc.com/blog/shot-craft/specified-lens-tests  )

- A pentagon shape aperture, a pentagon light bubble effect.
- A seven blades aperture, a seven corners / sided light bubble effect.
- A “heart” shape aperture, a “heart” shape light bubble effect (as example given before).

Notwithstanding that with a very large opening of e.g. a pentagon shape aperture (or any other shape),
there may be a combination of both the "cat's eye" effect and the pentagon shape itself.
(The resource by  phillipreeve.net  as for  < many examples / tests >)  do show this combination for several lenses).

Typical the “light bubble effect” of the    “Light Lens Lab 50mm 2.0 Speed Panchro II”,
(as shown in the previous message), the combination of “Cat’s eye” still is very rounded.




Apart from that, there is something special to the shape of the aperture of  Voigtländer 35mm and 50mm Apo-Lanthar  lenses.
        The shape of the aperture vary by the used value. (F 2 and F 2.8 are fully round).
I don’t know exactly which aperture values, as I don't have that lens?  (Maybe also a third aperture value ??)
But is a general known aspect of these two lenses.  You do own such a lens.  Maybe you didn’t notice yourself?
Check by taking the lens in your hand and turning the aperture ring, and look to the shape of the aperture opening.
(Maybe it is written in the included booklet / manual of the lens ?)

If it is fully round, at least this is the best option to get a “round” shape light bubble effect.
But if you want a “sunstar” effect by highlights (at glowing street lights in the evening),
this only is possible if there are “corners” by the shape of the aperture. NOT if you have a round shape aperture.
So every aspect do have also its own drawbacks.

Voigtländer have made a balance between it. You can use both effects dependent which aperture value is set.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Babylonia

[Babylonia]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Babylonia:

Apart from that, there is something special to the shape of the aperture of  Voigtländer 35mm and 50mm Apo-Lanthar  lenses.
        The shape of the aperture vary by the used value. (F 2 and F 2.8 are fully round).
I don’t know exactly which aperture values, as I don't have that lens?  (Maybe also a third aperture value ??)
But is a general known aspect of these two lenses.........

There seems a difference as for the shape of the aperture
by the  "VM" mount  Voigtländer 50mm / 1:2,0 APO-Lanthar  and Sony E-mount version.

Specs.   "VM" mount version

        Furthermore, the 12 diaphragm blades not only form a circular opening in F2.0 and F2.8, but also in F5.6,
        which enables a circular bokeh from a point light source.

Specs.   "Sony-E" mount version

        In addition, the aperture blades with twelve elements employ special shape
        that becomes round shape with not only at F2, but also at F2.8.
        This enables circular Bokeh effect from point light source.


The version of the  Voigtländer 35mm / 1:2,0 APO-Lanthar  model vary even more (but same for both mount versions).

Specs.   "VM" mount version

        The 12 aperture blades form a round opening at F2.0, F2.8, F5.6 and F16,
        which enables a circular and also very balanced bokeh from a point light source.

Specs.   "Sony-E" mount version

        The 12 aperture blades form a round opening at F2.0, F2.8, F5.6 and F16,
        which enables a circular and also very balanced bokeh from a point light source,
 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Babylonia

[Babylonia]

In addition to searching for resources that explain  'bokeh'  in a good way,
By chance  I came across  another topic of the forum  (via Favorite Images),
where a good written article on bokeh was cited. For completeness of the subject here, I would like to share it with you to:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/tips-and-solutions/understanding-bokeh?BI=734&KBID=1035

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by Babylonia

[Babylonia]

@DirkZ

Off topic.
(If it is necessary for starting a new subject, maybe a moderator can split / move this part).

By looking at your images displayed within another part of the community  --->  Images from Panasonic cameras {merged},
I went further  to your website  and read about the horrible experience of your malfunctioning Leica SL2 camera &  24-70mm lens.
Now sold and exchanged by the Panasonic S1R.  Hopefully, you can spend your time to photography again, by a faultlessly working camera now.

Outside your previous camera problems, you have experience in using  VM-mount Voigtländer lenses
(specially the  35mm / 2.0 Ultron  and  50mm / 2.0 Apo-Lanthar)  by both L-mount camera models.

It is known that the Panasonic S1R is using a more thick sensor cover glass than Leica. (But not that thick than e.g. a Sony E-mount camera).
As a result, maximum optical performance at the edges and corners of an image may lag somewhat behind, compared to the Leica body.
If lenses are not specially optimised for different camera models or mounts.
(But also dependent by the exit pupil distance of the optical design / focal length).

I have seen test images showing a difference as for Voigtländer lenses specialised for  Sony E-mount  camera’s,
were the Sony E-mount model is optimized for Sony camera more thick sensor cover glass, and give a better performance into edges / corners.
In comparison to the  VM-mount Voigtlander lenses  used to the same E-mount Sony camera by a VM to E-mount adapter.

Did you notice these differences in your own experience between Leica SL2 and Panasonic S1R ?
And is it just a minor difference or much more noticeable / annoying?  Maybe you do have image examples?
(Could be that it do show more using the  Voigtländer 35mm / 2.0 Ultron  in relation to  50mm / 2.0 Apo-Lanthar).

Also found out that you also are using some Sigma lenses.

At this moment, I only am using one Sigma lens, 50mm / 1.4  as showed by example  more early.
A kind of “love/hate” feeling. Love the quality of general sharpness (already wide open) & bokeh.
The high mechanical build of the lens, and completeness of functions (e.g. the separate aperture ring).

Chosen after I ordered a  Lumix 50mm / 1.8  first.
But found out already within the shop by some test images, this Lumix 50mm copy was faulty / had problems (a real "lemon").
So even didn't take it home. Leave it in the shop and ordered the Sigma 50mm / 1.4

The “hate” feeling, is the relative big and bulky size.  Looking still to a fast 35mm lens, a second "heavy" lens, is to much for me.
I know this Sigma lens do have CA / LoCa at wider apertures, even before buying one. (I always do my homework first, before buying).
But bother not that much for the kind of images I use this lens, as it can be corrected in post.
The Panasonic Lumix Pro lens  50mm / F 1.4 is better in this regard.  But even more heavy (and much more expensive).

Keep in mind, perfect lenses don’t exist.  In one way or another there's always a drawback.
If it is not by pure optical means, it is by weight and size, or e.g. manual focus vs. AF.
Or more slow AF  (e.g. inherent to AF macro lenses).

So always a decision / balance for the kind of photography someone is doing, and making a choice.
(That can be different for anyone, related to his own goals and personal preferences).

Edited November 11, 2023 by Babylonia

[soccerrick10]

On 11/4/2023 at 3:13 AM, Mikko Kankainen said:

Many say it's good, creamy etc, I find it in many situations almost ugly. It's the only weakness this lens has imho. I bought Pana 50mm 1.4 as addition because of this. I don't care about the shape of bokeh lights, just the transition and the overall "peace" in the background.

Sample included, small crop to show bokeh in situation I find this business in clearly shown. Raw image, screenshot from Lightroom.

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

I have to say, that hasn’t been my experience.  I too would not be happy with this.  I just have never seen that with my copy of this lens.

 

[chrismuc]

Cat eye shaped bokeh balls towards the image corners are directly related to the vignetting of the lens. If a lens is f1.4 at open aperture for example, typically only the center or the lens is that ‘bright’ and ‘fast’, outside the center it isn’t, it vignettes, it’s darker, mainly because the front element is too small and also because of cosine forth’ law of illumination fall off.
That means, I think there isn’t any very fast lens (f1.4, f1.2, f1) without cat eye shaped bokeh balls in the image corners. 

[Babylonia]

The "cat eye-shaped bokeh" is what one can expect when using fast lenses in general.
One lens is just a "tiny bit" better / different from other lenses.
Personally, the shape of a "cat eye" is not my biggest concern what counts by today's new lens designs.

It is a matter of the busy outlined shapes (a kind of "soft" onion ring) around the edges/contours in the background.
No matter how "soft" the rendering of those areas outside the plane of focus may be?
Regarding using a 50mm/1.8 Lumix lens, within that earlier example, the busy background attracts quite a bit of negative attention.

This kind of uneven rendering in bokeh can actually manifest itself more strongly at certain distances and the types of objects in the background.
Trees and bushes in background is typically a good subject for testing these kind of optical characteristics.

(E.g. a Sigma 50mm/1.4 - and using the same aperture values, it is considerable better in my opinion).

 

Edited March 24, 2024 by Babylonia

[rsh]

On 3/23/2024 at 7:54 PM, soccerrick10 said:

I have to say, that hasn’t been my experience.  I too would not be happy with this.  I just have never seen that with my copy of this lens.

 

The bokeh in this photo has never appeared in photos when I am using the 50 Summicron Asph SL

[michael_b]

These pictures are taken with the 1,8/50@F2 showing the Bokeh at close distance.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[DirkZ]

vor 29 Minuten schrieb michael_b:

taken with the 1,8/50@F2 showing the Bokeh at close distance.

Yes, looking nice. This lens is a bargain.