Infurating Lens Repair Experiences with Wetzlar

[Ecar]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

3 hours ago, RexGig0 said:

I can certainly understand a shortage of workers skilled in manufacturing and repairing lenses. The whole world seems to want to write code, and move computer mice about, or have multiple streams of “passive income,” but so very few seem to want to perform precise manual labor.

A glimpse of hope: perhaps AI will replace some of these IT-related jobs and people with manual skills will find that they can charge more for these than they could for moving the computer mouse about...

[FrozenInTime]

27 minutes ago, Ecar said:

A glimpse of hope: perhaps AI will replace some of these IT-related jobs and people with manual skills will find that they can charge more for these than they could for moving the computer mouse about...

Or as in Asimov's Bicentennial Man, the intelligent robot makes his money from hand carving wooden art pieces.

An AI controlled robotic workstation, could learn a well constrained mechanical, assembly or clean, repair and adjust, task quite quickly - within a matter of years from now; surpassing human technicians.

Edited November 4, 2023 by FrozenInTime

[Jewl]

I also do think that they have an issue with proper planning of the repairs. Even if it takes long to repair a certain product (eg a lens) they could at least set a certain date eg 6 months in future so that you can send it in just shortly before the scheduled date. But instead they let you send in the lens even though it rests there for months until the service is going to start! I argued with a service technician from Wetzlar on the phone but they excused this due to lacking business processes to enter a service order in the system in advance… I do think they also have issues with capacities etc. for sure but nevertheless, they definitely need to start optimizing their business processes to make it at least more convenient if they cannot finish a service in shorter time. 

assuming I have only one lens and need to live without it for half a year or even longer this is ridiculous tbh. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by Jewl

[FrozenInTime]

9 minutes ago, Jewl said:

I also do think that they have an issue with proper planning of the repairs. Even if it takes long to repair a certain product (eg a lens) they could at least set a certain date eg 6 months in future so that you can send it in just shortly before the scheduled date. But instead they let you send in the lens even though it rests there for months until the service is going to start! I argued with a service technician from Wetzlar on the phone but they excused this due to lacking business processes to enter a service order in the system in advance… I do think they also have issues with capacities etc. for sure but nevertheless, they definitely need to start optimizing their business processes to make it at least more convenient if they cannot finish a service in shorter time. 

assuming I have only one lens and need to live without it for half a year or even longer this is ridiculous tbh. 

As personal computer manufacturers can provide customers with trackable production scheduling and shipping for each order item, it must be down to management incompetence or complacency that camera companies cannot equally do so for their production and repair processes. At the very least they need to do this for internal reporting.

 

[Smudgerer]

48 minutes ago, Jewl said:

I also do think that they have an issue with proper planning of the repairs. Even if it takes long to repair a certain product (eg a lens) they could at least set a certain date eg 6 months in future so that you can send it in just shortly before the scheduled date. But instead they let you send in the lens even though it rests there for months until the service is going to start! I argued with a service technician from Wetzlar on the phone but they excused this due to lacking business processes to enter a service order in the system in advance… I do think they also have issues with capacities etc. for sure but nevertheless, they definitely need to start optimizing their business processes to make it at least more convenient if they cannot finish a service in shorter time. 

assuming I have only one lens and need to live without it for half a year or even longer this is ridiculous tbh. 

Right, I have a Summitar 50mm collapsible f2 lens that needs a CLA, so I got a good recommendation for a company for that but when I contacted them they said that they were booked up for at least a couple of months, however if I would fill out an online work-order I'd be given a date when they would do the work on the lens and a week or so prior to that I'd get an email requesting me to send it into them. The CLA would probably only take a few days before the lens was shipped back to me. I wish Wetzlar Customer Service would adopt this kind of scheduling plan.

[fotografr]

On 11/1/2023 at 8:08 AM, Ecar said:

This is becoming a serious issue. Leica should encourage third-party technicians by providing spares (instead of hoarding them), training, etc. These techs usually also deal with non-Leica items, such as LTM lenses, and ultimately support the rangefinder (but not only) ecosystem. At the end of the day, a thriving community of competent, independent repair shops benefits both Leica and its customers.

I would say when the repair time was 12 weeks, it was becoming a serious issue. Six to twelve months is a a deal breaker. Imagine buying a new car and having it in the shop for a warranty repair for that long--especially if your income depended on having it. 

[Ecar]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

5 hours ago, fotografr said:

I would say when the repair time was 12 weeks, it was becoming a serious issue. Six to twelve months is a a deal breaker. Imagine buying a new car and having it in the shop for a warranty repair for that long--especially if your income depended on having it. 

Fully agree. But at least you had the option (esp. once the warranty period had expired) of sending your gear to a third-party technician who would do the job faster most of the times. Now that these skilled technicians are progressively retiring, with no one to continue their business, you are going to be left only with Leica - i.e., a slower, more expensive and partial (how about non-Leitz/Leica gear?) solution. A deal breaker indeed.

Of course, there will always be a few competent, independent shops around the world, but they risk being overwhelmed by demand for their services (some already have been for quite some time), which implies that complexity (international shipping, customs, communications, etc.), repair times and costs will increase. Some potential Leica customers may just look at the total cost of ownership, decide that the hassle is not worth it and choose simpler/cheaper alternatives.

If Leica is unable or unwilling to invest in their own service activities, they should at least realise that helping independent technicians set up shop is good for their business. Building a training and support programme for technicians would probably be less expensive than many of the marketing gigs they keep organising in their stores. Incidentally, skilled technicians in this field are their own bosses, are not burdened with heavy investments or running costs and make good money. And I know a couple of the best ones who are not even interested in photography itself... So it can't be that difficult to generate interest.

[Alberti]

13 hours ago, Ecar said:

A glimpse of hope: perhaps AI will replace some of these IT-related jobs and people with manual skills will find that they can charge more for these than they could for moving the computer mouse about...

sorry but AI will never replace jobs, AI-embedded software are just tools to get a job done. But complex assessment & planning is totally out of scope for AI, imho. 

My experience with Wetzlar is pristine. I had a 1960ies lens there, they did a great job but indeed after some two months I had to call. But looking what they did, great. 

And if a lens is pretty hard hit like the OP said then you must be pretty happy the workshop even takes the work up, even though the outcome is unknown yet (can the lens be opened? Can the component be taken out? Do we still have that specific cam? etc. etc.). You really are at the Mercy Side of things.

&Then you just can't expect that several lenses that take different treatment get done at the same time. 

[Ecar]

1 hour ago, Alberti said:

sorry but AI will never replace jobs

You are right: it won't - it's actually already doing it for some jobs: clerical, data entry, 1st-level customer service, call centre, IT basic programming/monitoring, etc. job pools are shrinking. That's A LOT of jobs on a worldwide basis. AI will "displace" jobs and such displacement will require the affected workers to acquire new skills in sometimes entirely different areas. Hence my tongue-in-cheek post above. It may produce short-term re-skilling pain for the people affected, but if I had the need and the required abilities I'd rather repair lenses than enter data in spreadsheets or reply to (sometimes abusive) customers over the phone - and I will likely make more money from it. But that's just me.

1 hour ago, Alberti said:

AI-embedded software are just tools to get a job done.

Correct. But you need significantly less people to do some jobs. What you need is people with different/"better" skills to make good use of the new tools. Last week, my accountant was telling me that only 10 years ago he would have needed twice his current headcount to handle the same volume of activity and that he expects that in 10 years' time he will need half of the people he has now. His main concerns are picking the right tools and getting people trained to use them - or hire if they are unable to learn.

2 hours ago, Alberti said:

My experience with Wetzlar is pristine. I had a 1960ies lens there, they did a great job but indeed after some two months I had to call. But looking what they did, great.

Same for me, to be fair. Although it probably helps that my living does not depend on having a fast repair turnaround time for my photographic gear. And I still need those independent technicians for my non-Leica lenses...

2 hours ago, Alberti said:

And if a lens is pretty hard hit like the OP said then you must be pretty happy the workshop even takes the work up, even though the outcome is unknown yet (can the lens be opened? Can the component be taken out? Do we still have that specific cam? etc. etc.). You really are at the Mercy Side of things. 

I'm with the OP on this: it shouldn't take over 6 months to come up with a diagnosis, whatever that is. This is unacceptable. It's a lens, not a nuclear plant.

2 hours ago, Alberti said:

&Then you just can't expect that several lenses that take different treatment get done at the same time. 

Why not? All the 3rd-party technicians that I send lenses to to fix various ailments do them in a single batch.

[fotografr]

6 hours ago, Ecar said:

If Leica is unable or unwilling to invest in their own service activities, they should at least realise that helping independent technicians set up shop is good for their business. Building a training and support programme for technicians would probably be less expensive than many of the marketing gigs they keep organising in their stores. Incidentally, skilled technicians in this field are their own bosses, are not burdened with heavy investments or running costs and make good money. And I know a couple of the best ones who are not even interested in photography itself... So it can't be that difficult to generate interest.

I've known Don Goldberg (DAG) for 40 years, since my early days with the M system. He lives just 30 minutes from me and we've had many conversations about this situation. He was trained at the Leica facility in Wetzlar where he learned how to service and repair M lenses and M film bodies. 

When the M8 came on the scene, Don wanted to get the same training at Wetzlar for repairing and servicing digital M cameras. Leica refused and insisted they only wanted the digital repairs to be done by their own technicians. In hindsight, this decision by Leica management has been very detrimental and has undoubtedly cost them sales to people who are aware of the service issues and are unwilling to risk a Leica purchase. 

Perhaps the reasoning was that Leica didn't want to lose the cash influx from their repair centers, but when they have been so overwhelmed for so many years this makes no sense at all. At this point in time, it seems to come down to sheer stubbornness and not being willing to admit they were wrong. 

Edited November 5, 2023 by fotografr

[TomB_tx]

13 hours ago, fotografr said:

I would say when the repair time was 12 weeks, it was becoming a serious issue. Six to twelve months is a a deal breaker. Imagine buying a new car and having it in the shop for a warranty repair for that long--especially if your income depended on having it. 

I needed routine car service, so went to get an appt on-line. Earliest available was 5 weeks out. When I bought another car we changed brands for the fist time in 30 years...

[TomB_tx]

3 hours ago, Ecar said:

I'm with the OP on this: it shouldn't take over 6 months to come up with a diagnosis, whatever that is. This is unacceptable. It's a lens, not a nuclear plant.

Having worked nuclear plant service - it is done very promptly, as an outage can cost $1M per day in lost revenue, etc. Leica doesn't have that situation - just their customers lose revenue while waiting for repairs.

[charlesphoto99]

16 hours ago, Jewl said:

I also do think that they have an issue with proper planning of the repairs. Even if it takes long to repair a certain product (eg a lens) they could at least set a certain date eg 6 months in future so that you can send it in just shortly before the scheduled date.

Leica is an old company that is in many ways still locked into traditional ways. Germany is still very much a "queue culture" - you get in line, and wait your turn, no special allowances to be made, whether it's the tram, or getting your expensive camera repaired. This is seen as equality, but can also be very frustrating if not done properly or with proper communication. 

[tsleica]

Quote

I would say when the repair time was 12 weeks, it was becoming a serious issue. Six to twelve months is a a deal breaker. Imagine buying a new car and having it in the shop for a warranty repair for that long--especially if your income depended on having it.

Blow the transmission in your manual Mazda Miata MX5..and be prepared for months of waiting and poor service.

That said..

The M is a computer..they should be able to farm out the work to Precision or similar. 

They just dont wanna ...or dont care..

Imagine sitting at a Leica board meeting..and someone brings up the ungodly long repair times..

Just imagine..what is said... or thought...year after year...

I think they just say..

Sell cameras...

Let em wait..

Make profit..

Time for tea!

Edited November 5, 2023 by tsleica
add

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, fotografr said:

I've known Don Goldberg (DAG) for 40 years, since my early days with the M system. He lives just 30 minutes from me and we've had many conversations about this situation. He was trained at the Leica facility in Wetzlar where he learned how to service and repair M lenses and M film bodies. 

When the M8 came on the scene, Don wanted to get the same training at Wetzlar for repairing and servicing digital M cameras. Leica refused and insisted they only wanted the digital repairs to be done by their own technicians. In hindsight, this decision by Leica management has been very detrimental and has undoubtedly cost them sales to people who are aware of the service issues and are unwilling to risk a Leica purchase. 

Perhaps the reasoning was that Leica didn't want to lose the cash influx from their repair centers, but when they have been so overwhelmed for so many years this makes no sense at all. At this point in time, it seems to come down to sheer stubbornness and not being willing to admit they were wrong. 

Agree. Although I’m not sure how many third party techs would have been open to, or up to, the challenge. Sherry Krauter, for instance, told me that the equipment needed for dealing with digital tolerances is cost prohibitive for her.

Jeff

[Photon42]

I dropped off my Leica M10M in May at the Leica Store. Came back last week as "repaired". Rangerfinder was misaligned. It is not only the problem of finding staff. It seems no one really wants to review and improve the service process and the quality assurance. About 50% of my (newly bought) cameras needed to be serviced. That is already a problem in itself, but if then I have to wait for six months for the already paid product, this is a no-go. I like the company a lot, but the service process really needs to be fixed.

[UliWer]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Photon42:

I dropped off my Leica M10M in May at the Leica Store. Came back last week as "repaired". Rangerfinder was misaligned

Then the waiting time is gettinger longer recently:

I sent my M10 also with a misaligned rangefinder (caused by me falling on the street) in late May 2023 to Wetzlar  and got it back in late July. Did you have a chance of tracking what the actual time for repair was and how long handling and postage took? In my case the latter were almost two weeks which I think was too long. 

[Photon42]

In my case it was not only (but also) a misaligned Rangefinder - similar incident as yours ... It first went to Nidau (Switzerland), got then sent on to Wetzlar about four weeks later. After asking again, they told me the camera got a repair slot for mid October. What topped it off was that the rangefinder was quite off when they told me the camera is ready for pick-up. I now always bring a tool to check.

[sdw]

I am glad this struck a chord here — I was surprised to come back to find 3 pages of discussion. 

I got my 'estimate' in a week after drop-off: they indicated no estimated time of completion, but marked the services for my two damaged lenses as 'complimentary'. I thought this was odd but I figured they realized I'd owned a lot of Leica gear and it was a goodwill repair (that was the actual words used online). The other repairs would cost money, and I approved those estimates immediately. That's when this drama started.

I have since had an email from CS saying that they won't fix them — as it'd cost more than a new lens. I insisted they estimate the summilux anyway; it's more sentimental to me and I'd really like to keep shooting with it and it doesn't have to be perfect. I still don't see how they couldn't have just let me know this right away and offer to send the pieces back so I can start an insurance claim. 

You can make a lot of excuses for Leica but as has been said better in this thread: this isn't acceptable, and the only reason it's this bad is complacency. Limited bandwidth in your repair centre can be addressed - not just with added capacity, but by better scheduling, organization, and especially customer communications. Why this was quoted at 2 weeks and took over half a year and counting is beyond me. If anyone had dropped a car off at at a luxury car dealership and had a similar experience, it'd be a sign the company was possibly about to go bankrupt. 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[fotografr]

1 hour ago, Photon42 said:

I dropped off my Leica M10M in May at the Leica Store. Came back last week as "repaired". Rangerfinder was misaligned. It is not only the problem of finding staff. It seems no one really wants to review and improve the service process and the quality assurance. About 50% of my (newly bought) cameras needed to be serviced. That is already a problem in itself, but if then I have to wait for six months for the already paid product, this is a no-go. I like the company a lot, but the service process really needs to be fixed.

Just FYI, Don Goldberg can and does make rangefinder adjustments on both digital and analog M bodies.