Help needed with huge repair bill under warranty

[hillavoider]

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On 10/1/2023 at 9:47 PM, tashley said:

The trouble is that I have parsed two sets of images really carefully, including finding those with as neutral as possible a background in the area of the scratch and with (reported) apertures of f5.6 or tighter. These two sets are:

1) post the first repair 

2) post the discovery of the scratch

in neither set of images - other than those shot specifically to show the scratch - in other words in no ‘real world’ image is the effect of the scratch visible even with extreme processing efforts to push its visibility. 

There is another issue with the camera too: the red shutter speed LED display is missing a segment. Only when showing shutter speed, not when showing exposure compensation (!!!!) so that is being covered by warranty. Which means I’m losing it for three months anyway. So I really would like to get the scratch fixed because one day (maybe a seascape or a snow scene) it will show up. If I can make it show up shooting a plain white window blind then it is always a risk. And then there’s the resale value issue. 

 

You said you trade for the latest M when it comes out every time, can you live with the scratch till its time to trade and trade it at another Leica store? I'd be giving the scratch back to Leica  if its that hard to see it

Edited October 3, 2023 by hillavoider

[tashley]

A little update for anyone interested!

Today I received the camera back. The repair took three months and cost £2,135

I remain utterly convinced that the damage was caused by Leica themselves when they previously had to replace the sensor as a result of having shipped a unit that was faulty at the point of purchase as new. I had not touched the sensor myself between when they returned it to me from the first repair and when I discovered it had the fault that led to this recent repair.

Their claim that it is not possible that they shipped a unit that had not been correctly repaired is preposterous in light of the fact that they did originally ship a brand new unit with a faulty sensor. Their quality control has always been poor in my experience and this recent stroll through their customer service ethos is the end of the line for me. I had written directly to Dr Kaufmann on the matter and received no response - though there was a £146 ‘goodwill discount’ so I am 6.3% happy (that being the discount as a percentage of the repair cost).

So, for sale: a recently repaired (I can’t say how well) M11 with low mileage and a brand new sensor, plus close to new 28 Cron, 35 Lux FLE and almost totally unused 50 APO and a used but excellent WATE plus a beaten up but optically perfect 90mm Macro-Elmar. And a Q2 Reporter with light brassing around the strap lugs. All in London.

I won’t miss them. YMMV!!!!

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by tashley

[rwbowman]

What an experience, and I can see why you'd have a bad taste in your mouth. But you do now have a (maybe) like new M11 with some nice lenses and that Q2 Reporter. Can you see a time when that bad taste goes away and you can find some joy in the M kit? Or are you so sick of it all that just looking at anything Leica repulses you? Only you can say. My only advice is not to be too hasty, perhaps give it a little time before chucking it all. Good luck and best wishes to you.

[tashley]

53 minutes ago, rwbowman said:

What an experience, and I can see why you'd have a bad taste in your mouth. But you do now have a (maybe) like new M11 with some nice lenses and that Q2 Reporter. Can you see a time when that bad taste goes away and you can find some joy in the M kit? Or are you so sick of it all that just looking at anything Leica repulses you? Only you can say. My only advice is not to be too hasty, perhaps give it a little time before chucking it all. Good luck and best wishes to you.

Thank you - I have to say that this is - sadly - the final straw in a series of episodes that go back to the original M8 so it really wouldn’t be a hasty decision. In fact it’s one I’ve made once before, but eventually got tempted back by the higher resolution newer sensors and the reports of more accurate and enduring rangefinder calibration. If Leica were as reliable as my other cameras (they are not) and their repairs as quick (they are not) I would bear higher repair costs for a higher value item that I really love the look, feel and heritage of. But those things are not the case. I’m over it and ready to move on. Except my insurance company now says I need to hold off disposing of the M11 for a few days in case they need to look at it before settling my claim…

[ianforber]

1 hour ago, tashley said:

Thank you - I have to say that this is - sadly - the final straw in a series of episodes that go back to the original M8 so it really wouldn’t be a hasty decision. In fact it’s one I’ve made once before, but eventually got tempted back by the higher resolution newer sensors and the reports of more accurate and enduring rangefinder calibration. If Leica were as reliable as my other cameras (they are not) and their repairs as quick (they are not) I would bear higher repair costs for a higher value item that I really love the look, feel and heritage of. But those things are not the case. I’m over it and ready to move on. Except my insurance company now says I need to hold off disposing of the M11 for a few days in case they need to look at it before settling my claim…

Although I agree that sleeping on it for a week or so may be advisable, I can feel your frustration. Personally I’d keep the Q2R but that’s just me. I’m also kicking myself for just spending a load of money and therefore not being able to afford the 90mm Elmar!

[tashley]

3 hours ago, ianforber said:

Although I agree that sleeping on it for a week or so may be advisable, I can feel your frustration. Personally I’d keep the Q2R but that’s just me. I’m also kicking myself for just spending a load of money and therefore not being able to afford the 90mm Elmar!

Funny you should say that - it’s the one lens I never sold in all my many kit shuffles, because it adapts well on other cameras and is an amazing way of having a really nice 90mm in you pack which weighs effectively nothing and takes up no space. I might keep it still for Sony use.

[Warton]

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On 9/30/2023 at 5:11 PM, Sandokan said:

I do not know if you can use the number of actuations to demonstrate that between them repairing the sensor and now, the camera was not used so therefore any damage to the sensor occurred while it was with them for the repair? 

Just because a camera is not used doesn't mean the sensor cannot be scratched.

I feel it's hard to prove innocent in this case.

 

If I were you, I would just use the camera as is in real life as long as possible and then trade in for the next one. It's life, and move on.

Edited November 27, 2023 by Warton

[Derbyshire Man]

6 hours ago, tashley said:

Thank you - I have to say that this is - sadly - the final straw in a series of episodes that go back to the original M8 so it really wouldn’t be a hasty decision. In fact it’s one I’ve made once before, but eventually got tempted back by the higher resolution newer sensors and the reports of more accurate and enduring rangefinder calibration. If Leica were as reliable as my other cameras (they are not) and their repairs as quick (they are not) I would bear higher repair costs for a higher value item that I really love the look, feel and heritage of. But those things are not the case. I’m over it and ready to move on. Except my insurance company now says I need to hold off disposing of the M11 for a few days in case they need to look at it before settling my claim…

What an appalling story! I've had amazing support from Canon over the years and even better from Fuji, rapid turnaround (24 hours for Fuji) and sensible prices (although a sensor is always going to sting!). Leica wise I only have a Q2 Monochrome but this (and other stories on here about delay & attitude) really put me off further purchases despite being tempted by a M11-P, I just get the feeling I'll be another in a line of suckers. I remember reading a book called driving over lemons where a guy buys a ramshackle house in Spain for way over the odds and the old farmer owner tells him it's a village tradition to be led through the village on the back of a donkey. There's a strong feel of this is some of the stories people tell. A company with an imbalance between ££ spent on customer service, QA & product vs marketing, ambassadors and bling. Classic private equity situation.

I suspect I'll be holding on to my ££££ outside of possible second hand purchases.

[tashley]

21 minutes ago, Derbyshire Man said:

What an appalling story! I've had amazing support from Canon over the years and even better from Fuji, rapid turnaround (24 hours for Fuji) and sensible prices (although a sensor is always going to sting!). Leica wise I only have a Q2 Monochrome but this (and other stories on here about delay & attitude) really put me off further purchases despite being tempted by a M11-P, I just get the feeling I'll be another in a line of suckers. I remember reading a book called driving over lemons where a guy buys a ramshackle house in Spain for way over the odds and the old farmer owner tells him it's a village tradition to be led through the village on the back of a donkey. There's a strong feel of this is some of the stories people tell. A company with an imbalance between ££ spent on customer service, QA & product vs marketing, ambassadors and bling. Classic private equity situation.

I suspect I'll be holding on to my ££££ outside of possible second hand purchases.

I’ve always had a lot of respect for the good folk of Derbyshire. It might be colder than Spain but no one leads you through villages on a donkey.

[gotium]

On 11/27/2023 at 10:01 AM, tashley said:

Thank you - I have to say that this is - sadly - the final straw in a series of episodes that go back to the original M8 so it really wouldn’t be a hasty decision. In fact it’s one I’ve made once before, but eventually got tempted back by the higher resolution newer sensors and the reports of more accurate and enduring rangefinder calibration. If Leica were as reliable as my other cameras (they are not) and their repairs as quick (they are not) I would bear higher repair costs for a higher value item that I really love the look, feel and heritage of. But those things are not the case. I’m over it and ready to move on. Except my insurance company now says I need to hold off disposing of the M11 for a few days in case they need to look at it before settling my claim…

Unfortunately not a unique experience I think. I have been trying to find replacements for all my Leica gear after dealing with their service and repair. It's taken a long time but I think I am finally there!

Edited November 28, 2023 by gotium

[tashley]

20 hours ago, gotium said:

Unfortunately not a unique experience I think. I have been trying to find replacements for all my Leica gear after dealing with their service and repair. It's taken a long time but I think I am finally there!

Interesting, I am in the process of attempting to do the same by switching to a system based on the Sony A7RC, which is very small and light and has a great sensor though it’s ergonomics are less than perfect and it has no electric first curtain… But for my kind of wok the camera itself is good enough but my legacy stable of FE mount lenses is not. My first surprise has been changing my old 24-70 F2.8 Mk. I lens for a 24-105, which has no right to be as good as it is. Perfectly useable for nearly everything I do. The next thing to do is get rid of my old 16-35 F4 zoom, which was ok on smaller sensors but its images are an embarrassment on 60mp so I am now looking for a really nice prime in the 18mm range. In the end, the glass won’t be as good when I have finally got the shuffle done, but it will be stabilised and if anything goes wrong I won’t have to wait three months for a fix… the best camera is the one that isn‘t undergoing repairs!

I’d be fascinated to hear what you are doing as an alternative.

[gotium]

3 hours ago, tashley said:

Interesting, I am in the process of attempting to do the same by switching to a system based on the Sony A7RC, which is very small and light and has a great sensor though it’s ergonomics are less than perfect and it has no electric first curtain… But for my kind of wok the camera itself is good enough but my legacy stable of FE mount lenses is not. My first surprise has been changing my old 24-70 F2.8 Mk. I lens for a 24-105, which has no right to be as good as it is. Perfectly useable for nearly everything I do. The next thing to do is get rid of my old 16-35 F4 zoom, which was ok on smaller sensors but its images are an embarrassment on 60mp so I am now looking for a really nice prime in the 18mm range. In the end, the glass won’t be as good when I have finally got the shuffle done, but it will be stabilised and if anything goes wrong I won’t have to wait three months for a fix… the best camera is the one that isn‘t undergoing repairs!

I’d be fascinated to hear what you are doing as an alternative.

Exactly the same! I got the a7cr last week. So far I've used only the 35/1.4 G-Master, which is extraordinary. I've tried Sony several times before but could never come to terms with the colo(u)rs. With the a7rV/a7cr (but interestingly NOT with the a7cii) they've fixed things to my liking - the colors are lovely to my eye, FINALLY! For my needs it will replace my entire M system, probably my Qs and the defunct CL as well, and with the right lenses (there's a small 24 and a small 40) it might even push out my Ricoh GRiii/x. 

It looks to me like the Sony native lenses get the colors and AF right - I've tested other lenses on Sony, like the Sigma, but was not finding the same AF and colors as I see with this G-master - it really is incredible. 

Looks like you are more familiar with Sony than I am, with all those lenses. I'm starting from scratch. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by gotium

[algrove]

Tim

So sorry to read all of this. As a check Leica should have on hand in their records of your camera right after sensor replacement. They had to test it before sending it out and being German it is part of their records. Can you ask a higher up you might know to look at their records?

Another idea is to just get an M10R.

[tashley]

18 hours ago, gotium said:

Exactly the same! I got the a7cr last week. So far I've used only the 35/1.4 G-Master, which is extraordinary. I've tried Sony several times before but could never come to terms with the colo(u)rs. With the a7rV/a7cr (but interestingly NOT with the a7cii) they've fixed things to my liking - the colors are lovely to my eye, FINALLY! For my needs it will replace my entire M system, probably my Qs and the defunct CL as well, and with the right lenses (there's a small 24 and a small 40) it might even push out my Ricoh GRiii/x. 

It looks to me like the Sony native lenses get the colors and AF right - I've tested other lenses on Sony, like the Sigma, but was not finding the same AF and colors as I see with this G-master - it really is incredible. 

Looks like you are more familiar with Sony than I am, with all those lenses. I'm starting from scratch. 

I have a dirty secret: the Sony FE 24-105 is a great deal better than it has any right to be at that weight size and price…. But the older Sony lenses I have (especially the 16-35 OSS F4 and the 35mm F2.8) are starting to show their age and will need reconsidering.

I’m really enjoying the files and shooting envelope of the A7RC but that on/off switch and the placement fo the dials is driving me slightly crazy. Not ‘back to Leica’ crazy but….

[tashley]

15 hours ago, algrove said:

Tim

So sorry to read all of this. As a check Leica should have on hand in their records of your camera right after sensor replacement. They had to test it before sending it out and being German it is part of their records. Can you ask a higher up you might know to look at their records?

Another idea is to just get an M10R.

Thank you it’s a good idea. I did email Dr. Kaufmann but there was no response and whoever else I asked the question of gave the standard reply: we test everything before we ship it and therefore the problem cannot have been caused by us. Except of course the problem they were initially fixing (misaligned sensor at first delivery) was clearly not tested before being shipped by them. It is that level of response that has me heading for the exit! 

Edited November 30, 2023 by tashley

[J S H]

2 hours ago, tashley said:

I have a dirty secret: the Sony FE 24-105 is a great deal better than it has any right to be at that weight size and price…. But the older Sony lenses I have (especially the 16-35 OSS F4 and the 35mm F2.8) are starting to show their age and will need reconsidering.

I’m really enjoying the files and shooting envelope of the A7RC but that on/off switch and the placement fo the dials is driving me slightly crazy. Not ‘back to Leica’ crazy but….

This is true. The 24-105 on the A1 can do about anything you might need. 

[venom]

You’re going to have to end up paying for it. 

Their record will show the camera was in perfect condition when they sent it to you. The sensor is guaranteed I’m sure if it fails, but not if it’s a scratch by an external object.

You should buy a magnifier loop with a light to look inside. Clean sensor with a soft flexible tip air blower and buy small APSC sensor swabs for something you can’t get rid of. I’ve cleaned my own sensor (a couple of times on my M10R and a bunch of times on the M10P and I’ve never had any issues. It’s so simple to do. But you can’t see anything really if you don’t have a magnifier. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by venom

[charlesphoto99]

20 hours ago, tashley said:

we test everything before we ship it and therefore the problem cannot have been caused by us. Except of course the problem they were initially fixing (misaligned sensor at first delivery) was clearly not tested before being shipped by them. It is that level of response that has me heading for the exit! 

Yeah, that's a b.s. line. Like my black paint M10-R that had an out of calibration rf straight out of the box. NJ adjusted it under warranty but sent back a snide note to this 30 year user of M's that the rf being out of calibration and not hitting infinity was within their accepted tolerance but went ahead and adjusted anyway. B.S.!

[algrove]

Hearing all this makes me wonder who Leica is hiring to do sensitive work these days. Maybe German labor laws require a new type of hiring policy in 2020's.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[dem331]

I empathise with the OP, and I am absolutely sure that the new sensor was scratched when Leica sent the camera back. 
 

However, if I were the manufacturer and a customer came back one year after the replacement to claim for this fault (which appears to be unnoticeable in actual images, or at the very worst easily corrected in PP), saying he had hardly used the camera but had cleaned the sensor I think I would adopt the same stance. If the claim had been made in a few weeks it would be different, but one year is a very long time. How is Leica going to differentiate between real and fake claims?   And I am sure they get plenty of dodgy claims. 
 

I for one sent a new M8 in a long time ago that had a sticky shutter release button which they repaired under warranty.  If they had asked I would have confessed that it might have had something to do with a friend’s spilt gin-tonic.